Molecular Biologist Dr. Keith Booher talks about the Horvath epigenetic clock and the why and how behind finding out your biological age.


Keith Booher received his PhD from the University of California, Irvine in 2011 where he conducted research in the field of cancer cell metabolism. He then began work at Zymo Research Corporation developing methods and assays for the investigation of epigenetics. Along with colleagues, he contributed to a high impact study evaluating methods for DNA methylation validation in 2016.
Keith continues to study epigenetics in his current position as Application Scientist at The myDNAge company or Epimorphy, LLC, in Southern California where his research is focused on healthy aging and longevity.
In his free time, you can find Keith either on the dance floor, at the local library, or spending time with his family.

"The world population is aging, especially in the West and the industrialized countries of Asia. In fact, the percentage of the population over the age of 65 is expected to more than double by the year 2050. An aging population presents many societal challenges as advanced age is the number one contributor to chronic ailments such as heart disease, cancer, neurological disorders, and more. It is imperative that meaningful and effective anti-aging interventions are identified and deployed in order to ease the transition from a younger to a gradually older population. Epigenetics involves the modification of gene expression without changing the underlying DNA sequence. Importantly, many recent scientific studies demonstrate the connection between epigenetics, especially DNA methylation, and aging. To date, analyzing changing DNA methylation patterns at key genes is the most accurate way to quantify the aging process. Understanding the connection between epigenetics and the aging process allows us to gain deeper insight into the mechanisms that cause aging, with the ultimate hope of devising interventions that will potentially lead to better health and longevity. 
 
Dr. Booher highlights the use cases for this new type of testing and it's used for those individuals or teams wanting to understand what protocols, training regimes, food plans, supplement regimes etc impact their own aging and how you can maybe even turn back the clock ticking on us all.
 
Get yourself tested and find out your biological age at: https://www.mydnage.com/
Use the code 'LISA15" to get a 15% discount on the cost of the test
 
Watch Dr. Keith's Ted Talk 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeT1RcwsDMc
 
 
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Transcript of the Podcast: 
 
 
Speaker 1: (00:01)
Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by Lisatamati.com welcome to pushing the limits.

Speaker 2: (00:12)
Let's see everyone. Thanks for joining me again today. I have a scientist to guest on the show, Dr. Keith Booher. Now, Dr. Keith is a molecular biologist and he works for a company called mydnage.com. Now this is a company that uses Dr. Steve Horvath's epigenetic clock. This tells us our biological age. So we have a very interesting conversation around the difference between your biological age your, your chronological age, and also the method of telling how old you are based on your DNA. So we're looking at DNA methylation as opposed to some of the other processes that look at biological aging from other factors. And we get to into a deep dive about looking at your biological age. Now this is really interesting from a perspective from coaching, from I'm trying to draw a line in the sand to see where you are now.

Speaker 2: (01:08)
And I can see this having benefits. We are looking at it for our mastermind program where we're thinking about having this as our baseline to start from where we can actually see what your biological age is at one point in time when you start. And then using that as we go through our program to see how you come out at the other end. And hopefully you would have lost a number of years off your life as far as your biological ages going. So this was a very interesting deep dive into this topic. So I hope you enjoy the show. And just before we go over to Dr Keith just like to remind you that I have my book relentless coming out in just a couple of weeks time or four weeks time and it's on the 11th of March and launches, it's available for preorder now you can jump on my website, hit the shop button and preorder it.

Speaker 2: (01:57)
And at moment you'll get access to my mindset Academy mindsetu for free. If you join or buy the book in the preorder stage, you'll also get a discount. It'll normally be retailing for $35. You'll get it for $29 plus you get access to mindset, you a value of $275. So really good idea to go on and jump and now and get it. And that helps me get the book rolling, get it out into the world. It's been a two year long process. So really excited to see that baby launch. As always, reach out to me if you've got any questions on this episode or on any of the other episodes that we've recorded. And I really appreciate your help with ratings and reviews on iTunes that really helps the show get exposure and of course sharing it with your friends and family if you got value out of it. So thanks and now over to Dr. Keith Booher from mydnage.com.

Speaker 3: (02:49)
Well, hello everyone. Lisa Tamati speaking and here I'm pushing the limits. I thank you once again for joining me today. I have a wonderful guest, Dr. Keith Booher who is a biochemist. Is that correct case?

Speaker 4: (03:02)
Yes, that's correctly. So thank you for having me.

Speaker 3: (03:04)
Yeah, it's wonderful to have you. So Keith is going to talk to us today about the biological clock. He works for a company called mydnage which does testing of the biological age as opposed to your chronological age. And this is a very interesting area we in our company through it continued existing without athletes and clients. So this is something that I'm very interested in finding out more about in cases coined the agreed to come on the show and talk to us about it. So. Okay. Can you give us a little bit of background about who you are and where you come from and, and the work that you're doing?

Speaker 4: (03:46)
Yes, certainly. So, so my name is Keith Booher. I'm a scientist. I worked for the company epi Morphe that offers the mydnage test. This isn't a epigenetic, a base test to quantify aging or biological age. And my background I got a PhD in biological chemistry. I'm from the university of California, Irvine here in Southern California right now. They've worked and where the company's headquartered. I then joined a research companies. I'm a research, Oh, also in California when I started doing epigenetics research in an industrial setting and then transitioned to a, working with the epi Murphy and offering the mydnage test.

Speaker 3: (04:28)
Wonderful. So can you tell us a little bit, well, for the listener, what is epigenetics and the area of study of epigenetics and what is on those a biological clock?

Speaker 4: (04:39)
Yeah, so I think, so the scientific, no definition of epi genetics, so it's a biological term. So simply refers to any changes in gene expression that occur without altering the primary DNA sequence. So what that sort of means in lay context is any, any instance where our genetics interacts with the environment. So sort of nature versus nurture a concept. So what epigenetics then does at the molecular level is to help control gene expression or to help turn genes on or off, or how strongly genes are expressed in the cell. I think an analogy that I've heard before, which is it's not perfect, but I think gives you the idea would be that our genes, our genetics, it'd be the hardware with which we operate. And epigenetics would be the software or instructions that tells that hardware what to do.

Speaker 3: (05:33)
Wow. Okay. So, so in other words, our environment, what we eat they, the, the, the, the toxins in our environment. Eric's the size, whether we do any or not, all of these things will have an effect on how our genes express themselves. So we've gone as sort of DNA code, which we can't really change. Yeah. What genes are turned on and off can be affected by environment. That, correct.

Speaker 4: (05:58)
Yeah, that's absolutely correct. So there's lots of studies looking at how epigenetics change in response to environment. So this, you know, in the past decade, decade and a half, there's been a lot of progress made by the scientific community. So we know that you know, people that go on a controlled exercise regimen you know, when they start versus a, when they stop after six months and compared to control group. So there are genetic changes that, that occur in a skeletal muscle. So we know that people have also looked at adipose or the fat tissue and also seeing epigenetic changes in response to certain exercise programs. We also know that smokers have a different epigenetic, I'm marks highly correlative with smoking. Mmm. That these epigenetic marks behind people in certain occupations where they're exposed to a lot of environmental pollutants such as coal miners, a certain factory workers also have pronounced epigenetic changes compared to those that aren't occupied in such fields.

Speaker 4: (07:04)
I think another, sorry, maybe another example just to really, it would be easy to understand is if you look at twins. So twins are genetically identical individuals. However, through the course of their lives. So we know what, you know, when they're young, we can take it classmates in grade school with some twins. I mean, you couldn't tell them apart. Right. But if we think of older twins, you know, throw the course of their lives, you know, they maybe move to different places there obviously the families that they no start you know, they have different sort of traditions, different diets perhaps they like to eat, you know, brought in from their own partners and all these different influences impact their epigenetics. Right? So these still genetically identical individuals but the epigenetics change based on their environment and their lifestyle and when they're older, they actually don't resemble each other as much as they did when they were. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 3: (07:59)
That's really good example of, of, of the, the power of epigenetics isn't it? I saw a photo of a pair of twins that I think were on the Oprah Winfrey show years ago. And two ladies, one very, very overweight one, one not and the identical twins. It's a really, it's an easy way to understand how much your environment fix your epigenetics of fakes your and how you end up. So in other words, we can't just blame mum and dad and our ancestors for what we've got. We have some responsibility for how we tune out. Is that right?

Speaker 4: (08:37)
Yeah, that's right. And I think it's it's actually allows us to take control and you know, kind of dictate where we want to be so we can, we're not destined for some, you know, fate just based on our, our genetics. We, we can actually influence what those genetics do.

Speaker 3: (08:55)
Yeah. So is this so I'm, I, I've read a lot of Dr. Bruce Lipton's work and books. And you know, I have found this whole area really, really fascinating and it's pretty new, isn't it? In the scientific world, like we're talking what the last 30, 40 years or Mmm. Oh, that, that scientists have really understood that the, it's not just your DNA that makes you who you are. Is it pretty new field?

Speaker 4: (09:22)
Yes and no. So I think we're all familiar with the Charles Darwin and in his theories on evolution. He's one of the preeminent scientists, the modern world. Actually before Darwin, there's a French, a scientist and philosopher, a Lamarck who, you know, he actually predicted that the, you know, wow. What are our, our parents or the mother and father the type of lifestyle they live. Okay. Their environment will impact. Mmm. The children. So it's actually a heritable trait passed on just based on, so he said that if you were, if your parents, did you follow with a blacksmith, you know, all the hard work that makes them strong will then be passed onto to his children. Mmm. And like a giraffe that you know, needs to a stretch to reach the the leaves from on the tallest branches of the tree will, you'll get a longer neck and then that'll be passed down for the next generation.

Speaker 4: (10:17)
And this is, this is a way that, okay. Drafts have evolved. Mmm. Once Darwin's theories came out and were tested you know, Mendell then proved how genes, I kind of demonstrated how James can, can, can behave. A lot of the marks, theories were just you know, kind of put in the, the dustbin of history and he was sort of left off, you know, these were, these were sort of thought as ridiculous principles, but a sure enough, as you, as you just mentioned, Lisa, in the past several decades, actually, the Mark's original theories have been proven to be a, have a lot of Yeah. He was before his time. And we know this to be true. I mean, the, the biology is clear that and then we're learning more about it all the time. And even in I think 2014 as these studies were coming out more and more showing the power epigenetics you know, a portrait of what Mark was on the cover of nature magazine and they kind of featured and, you know, paid homage to his, his original theories.

Speaker 3: (11:15)
Wow. What a shame. He wasn't around to say that a bit. That would have been the kinds of a lot of things. So in other words, so when we're talking evolution here or intergenerational . I, I read some way that, for example, when a mother smokes and the baby's in the, in the womb, that that can affect the baby's DNA and then it can affect also who children's DNA. Is that correct? The intergenerational nature, or is that a Zeta? It's not, is it epigenetics or is that more genetic changes?

Speaker 4: (11:54)
Oh, well, so any genetic change that's altered in a, what we call the germline. Oh, you know, the the male gametes are the chemo sites. That's certainly genetically heritable changes that occur in our you know, the scan for example, know if we know examples that give rise to cancer or something don't. So those wouldn't be heritable. Right. So like if something like skin cancer epigenetics, then, so, so for it to be heritable, it has to occur in the germline so that that would be the same for genetics or, right. Yeah. So we, so certainly genetic change is hard. I mean, that's, that's very clear. Epigenetic is it seems to also be true. There's lots of circumstantial evidence. It's very difficult to do these studies in humans for obvious reasons. Hmm. Other studies and other types of model organisms, the biologists often used to study different phenomenon indicates that indeed epigenetic inheritance inheritance is, is a observed phenomenon. I think it's very strong evidence in plants. I mean, these, these, these traits are, I mean, they persist for it. Dozens of generations in mammals, you know, maybe more temporal. So two to three or even four generations, but not not, not that stable, but it appears that they are here.

Speaker 3: (13:16)
Wow. Okay. So so we can affect our whole, yeah, the intergenerational aspect of it is quite interesting, but if we, if we just back up a little bit now and go into the dr Steve Horvath's work in the Horvath clock and I believe that is the basis of the work that has his work is the basis of, of the testing that you do. Can you explain what dr Horvath discovered and what that means for biological age and what, you know, how, how, how we can use it perhaps?

Speaker 4: (13:50)
Yeah. So this biological aging or epigenetic aging clock. So dr Horvath I think is the worldwide leader in this research. So he originally published a study in 2013. There was actually another study that came out actually a little before his that did something very similar. So I should mention too, it, he's, dr Horvath is a professor at UCLA. Oh. Petitioning biologists, computational biologists. So what both these research groups did, so her about that UCLA and then another group led by Hannah at a UC San Diego. So both in Southern California. So what they did was they looked at the epigenetic, a data for thousands of individuals and the applied some complex statistical mathematical algorithms. And what they found was that there were patterns of a change, epigenetic change that occurs with age. And so by of tapping into these different patterns, they could develop a model that would predict [inaudible] predict age based on epigenetic information. So, so that's where the clock came from. So basically, depending on what your epi genetics show, you can then assign a biological age

Speaker 3: (15:05)
Without any information. On the individual yourself. If you can take just a drop of blood, you can actually say with, with pretty, hi Jackness call it 98, the single thing. How well would that individual is based on the work from dr Hova? So most people fall into this, this Linea Patton that would say, well, this person has these markers on the DNA before that person is the Savage, is that how it works?

Speaker 4: (15:42)
That's correct. That's correct. So I think there's one. So it's not, it's not just that you want to predict an age, but it's actually a signing up biological age. Yes. So I think that's a key kind of thing to keep in mind. So no, we talked about the twins earlier, you know, a few moments ago and we can see that some based on, you know, one was overweight and the other was more fit based on their lifestyle choices. So the did the choices that we make in our lives. So whether we exercise or eat a healthy diet other things, Mmm. Influencer epigenetics, which can turn in turn influence our aging. So we can actually have and accelerated aging compared to an average person or actually a slower rate of aging compared to someone else. So the Horvath clock measures that, that biology based on the epigenetics. So, you know, you may be 10 years younger biologically than your chronological age, which would be indicative of, you know, good health or good cause I've stopped choices you've made.

Speaker 3: (16:45)
Do you see big swings in the like, you know, 10 years or is it mostly that most people are in the, you know, within a year or two off via at their actual chronological age.

Speaker 4: (16:56)
So most people will be within a year or two. That's, that's Mmm, that's what you know, Horvath and others have shown. And that's what we see in our data. However you do see outliers. And I think every time we see a case where someone is okay, we do see 10 or, or greater years difference. Wow. It, it seems to be associated with, I mean, it almost in every case, there's some reason why. So some known this person may be suffering from a genetic disease or I think one thing common in, and you know, people we've looked at is, Oh, they've been treated with chemotherapy. So these are very powerful drugs that you know, obviously to, to treat cancer, but I have very strong side effects. I mean, this is very well known. These, you know, some are just not tolerated well at all. And we know these, these type of people have actually accelerated aging, very rapid aging compared to an average person. Mmm.

Speaker 3: (17:53)
Do you see the other way like, people who have lived a, you know, extremely good, healthy lifestyle with good food, good exercise not too much stress you know, 18 or more years younger than there a chronological edge.

Speaker 4: (18:08)
So I don't think just for lifestyle choices, I don't think we've seen a huge effect in that regard. But there we have seen some strong effect. I think for certain people are doing certain targeted interventions, it's a little more and just trying to eat more vegetables or run a little further. These are taking drugs. So I think Metformin

Speaker 3: (18:32)
hmmm

Speaker 4: (18:33)
There's one that's looked at very seriously for some of these anti-aging effects and we do see a pretty consistent, strong effect towards a slower aging. Yeah.

Speaker 3: (18:44)
[Inaudible] Is a, is an interesting one because it doesn't let up think though negatively the, the mitochondria. And, but, but it was a little bit confusing when I looked into just some surface level research on Metformin thinking, gosh, this sounds interesting. I want to have that. It, it produces more longevity, but it can damage the mitochondria. How would that work? Because your mitochondria, your rap part of this whole metabolic pertussis, I mean, it's probably too deeper questions to ask you, you know, but do you know why?

Speaker 4: (19:20)
Well, that's, that's a very good question, huh? The short answer is no one knows why. So, so yeah, there's sort of a antagonistic effects on or seemingly that would, that would associated with adverse health outcomes. But the data showed, we know it has been prescribed for type two diabetics years and has very good outcomes. And it seems to be off target prescribed for other melodies as well. You know, that the side effects are, are small. I mean, that's just based on you know, lots of people taking the drug. It seems that small side effects and clearly the benefits in most cases outweigh the whatever side effects may occur. Mmm. As to the reason why, I mean, it may be that the positive affects to regulate glucose metabolism, insulin,

Speaker 3: (20:16)
Yup.

Speaker 4: (20:18)
Maybe more important than the damage it causes or we have you know, just backup systems to deal with mitochondrial damage or stress that we don't have as robust. I mean, just as you know, living human beings that we don't have for when our glucose metabolism goes awry.

Speaker 3: (20:35)
So you know, that would be especially the case for, you know, people with diabetes or prediabetes. It has the same effect then on the healthy, you know the healthy person who doesn't have insulin resistance or any glucose

Speaker 4: (20:49)
Problems. So, yeah. So we get this, I get this question a lot. I would be very careful about just taking any drugs, you know, getting home from certain websites for example, I would, I would consult a physician for that. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I know your listeners are probably very interested on what types of things they can do to, to help them.

Speaker 3: (21:15)
Nobody don't go out there and do anything solid, not advocating this. We definitely won't. But, but it's interesting to look at the data. I know that there was a study done just a couple of years ago, I think by dr Horvath where they were able to reverse the, the epigenetics

Speaker 4: (21:33)
Clock

Speaker 3: (21:34)
In a small clinical study by giving people growth hormone and to diabetic medications, I believe. One. Mmm. And they took two and a half years off the year.

Speaker 4: (21:49)
Mmm.

Speaker 3: (21:49)
I'll say biological

Speaker 4: (21:51)
Age.

Speaker 3: (21:53)
That's, that's pretty exciting to actually be able to reverse. I mean, I know this was a small clinical trial and, and certainly not a big one. And obviously it's a very difficult area to do big blocks studies end, but a w would suggest that we're going to be able to in future reverse the aging process, which is super exciting rather than just slowing it down.

Speaker 4: (22:17)
Yeah. So this was the study you mentioned was a, that was a big one. So there's a lot of I don't know a lot, but there's a, there's a decent amount of studies you know, the Horvath and others have been involved in showing on ways to slow the rate of aging. But I was at a, a, a conference actually I gave a presentation along with the, dr Horvath was a keynote speaker and there was another, a surgeon Jim Watson. No. And Jim Watson said, you know, we think that we will be able to reverse actually reverse the clock. And Horvath was, this was January, 2018. He was pretty, he pushed back pretty hard on that idea. He said, you know, there's, there's nothing we found that can actually reverse aging clock. I, there's nothing in the data that shows that, you know, Jim Watson, he's a, he's a prominent Sergeant, you know, he works with patients and you know, from his medical person, he's like, well, I respectfully disagree. Yeah. And if you look at the authors on the paper, you mentioned Steve Horvath, but actually Jim Watson is, I think he's a senior author on that. Mmm. They ended up collaborating after this, you know, and [inaudible] looking into ideas from the medical side and then from, you know, dr horvath, you know, using this, these, these epigenetic aging clocks. And sure enough just as you mentioned, the study showed it was small, but it showed clearly that the aging was reversed to these individuals

Speaker 3: (23:39)
In a, in a very short space of time too, which is exciting to think what would happen if these interventions were, you know, extrapolated over a longer period of time. Mmm.

Speaker 4: (23:52)
Yeah. That's, that's right. I, you know, if you look at the, the intervention in that case, it was a drug cocktail. It was a two, two hormones, DTA I think human growth

Speaker 3: (24:05)
Yeah.

Speaker 4: (24:06)
And then I met foreman again was a drug they use to kind of help regulate some of the hormonal side effects of those drugs. And it was this three drug cocktail. Mmm. The the original goal of that study was to help reverse some of the immune decline. It had been well documented. We know our immune system starts to decline and as we grow older and the famous of course this organ that it functions in immune, you know, healthy immune function tends to get weaker and shrink. And so that's what the, the study was originally designed to just boost thymus function in the immune system. And okay. The authors showed clearly with, yeah, with, with clinical measurements, famous enemy and functions were restored and it was then shown, that's when Horvath came in and looked at the the epigenetics to show that actually reversed in these people who had responded well to the treatment. So

Speaker 3: (25:04)
Yeah, that's a short time frame as you mentioned. Yeah. Yeah. Very exciting. There's hope for us who are aging that we bought. So hurry up. You guys get started in so with the, the Magii and H test which people, you know, the public can go and get the SKUs. So if you wanting to actually, after listening to this episode want to go and just what your biological ages, I'll give you the address. It's just my, my DNA h.com. So DNA G a.com and you can order a test the and have the stun, which I, I'm, I'm finding fascinating from a coaching perspective and from an athlete's perspective to be able to draw a line in the sand and say, well, this is where we started from. And then we, you know, instigate L a epigenetic program for example, and our training regimes and nutrition and so on.

Speaker 3: (26:00)
And then perhaps in six to 12 months time retest to see what the I need a fake was. So I'm, I'm excited to be able to hopefully incorporate this into some of our, of our programs. And one of the reasons I reached out you today when we, let me go to the, look at the the testing that you do. So you're looking at the DNA methylation, is that right? Mmm. Can you explain what the United w what exactly that you're looking there with the, when you're looking at the methylation marks on DNA?

Speaker 4: (26:36)
Yeah, yeah, that's right. So we're looking at DNA methylation. So know anyone who wants to use our test, I might, do you need

Speaker 3: (26:44)
To test?

Speaker 4: (26:45)
We would send them a kit. Mmm. We would it comes with you know, slow land so we can take a blood drop. Mmm. That's put into a, you know, a special preservation stage or buffer solution.

Speaker 3: (26:57)
[Inaudible]

Speaker 4: (26:57)
Your preserve the integrity of the sample and then it can just be mailed back at room temperature. So it doesn't need to be frozen or cold or anything. I think also send a urine sample as well. So it's, it's, it's up to the it's each individual if they feel comfortable with, Mmm. That's sent back to us from the blood or urine sample. We will extract the DNA and then perform some fancy chemistry to quantify DNA methylation levels at a panel of genes that are known to be highly associated or highly informative of aging.

Speaker 3: (27:32)
Huh.

Speaker 4: (27:33)
Based on those values, we can then plug it into a mathematical model to predict the biological age. And again, this is, this is based off of a, you know, Horvath and others of the based on original publications. We sort of make it a economic one available too. And

Speaker 3: (27:54)
Sorry, Carry on.

Speaker 4: (27:58)
So we can make that that technology, which would otherwise not be accessible to non scientists. The general public, we can make it accessible to them. So they can, they can get their own biological age assessment.

Speaker 3: (28:10)
Yeah. It's really, really exciting. So, so you're looking at around 2000 different James. Mmm how do you, how do you express it? He was signs on there. They had assigned basically there was damage here. So you're looking at damage, Marcus.

Speaker 4: (28:30)
It's not, it's not famous markers per se. So specifically it's, it's DNA methylation. So a methyl group is a, you know, if you think from your organic chemistry, this is the most the oxidized form of carbon. A ch three is added to DNA and basis known as cytosines any basis on the cytosines. And when it's added biologically, what's going on at the molecular level is it's influencing gene expression. So helping genes turn on or off, on or off. Mmm. And these levels change over the course of our lives and it's this change that can then be related to, to, to the

Speaker 3: (29:12)
Marcus. Okay. I get that. Yeah. So does it take into consideration things like inflammation or cardiovascular health or kidney and liver function or metabolic metabolic state as well? Or is that readable from the DNA?

Speaker 4: (29:32)
Not with, not with the mighty age test. So if there's something specific like that, again, I'm in consultation with a physician. If you're worried about your

Speaker 5: (29:41)
Kidney health, metabolic health, Mmm. Then, right. You know, there's more specific tests to directly look at. Right, right. I think as a pan health indicator it gives you some information. Right. Cause I know that there is you know, other companies that do biological age tests that are based not on the Horvath clock, but on, I'm looking at these are the tops of biomarkers, like your inflammation, inflammation, they've always been your, your cardiovascular health. And I was trying to understand what is the difference in the, in the approach, you know, in the approaches and which one is, Mmm. Well going to give us some more exact calculation if you like. Do you know of the other ones and the difference between, well I mean, so there's, there's a lot, you know, people have been using like in a doctor's office, just a grip, the grip test, your vape.

Speaker 5: (30:39)
How will you walk? Yeah. The way you walk. But you know, there's a really broad era for those, for people you know, between the ages of teen until some point in your, your older years. Mmm. It's just not very, not very good. It's very precise, very precise. There's other molecular tests. Even if you look at DNA methylation or epigenetic tests, they may focus on a single gene or just a few genes having a, a more focused, you lose a lot of robustness so they can be more susceptible to small changes or small, Mmm. Environmental insults that may actually not have a big impact. So by incorporating thousands of sites into the tests, which, or my teenage test does, it's more robust to small changes. So overall picture. Yeah, that would be it. You know, cause when I heard about things like grip strength and stuff, I was like, well, if I got into the gym a lot, obviously I'm going to have a lot more grip strength.

Speaker 5: (31:39)
It doesn't necessarily, I'm biologically younger. Right, right. Yeah. Basically you say, I have a normal or we're better than average. Right. Or it's not good. Right? I mean that's, you get kind of a yes or no kind of a yes, yes. But it's not, it's difficult to say, you know, you know, you're looking at the also your body type, you know, like, and with your, you're a muscular person or you're a someone who is more of a flexible person, you know, there's, there's just too much. Okay. Wavering in the air. I mean things like inflammation markers of course. Can you look at the state of your health but perhaps notch the actual, you know, whether it's having damage, you mean you can have inflammation markers because you've got a cold as well, which would be skew the data satisfied. and a bad week.

Speaker 5: (32:35)
Yeah. And this wouldn't happen with the, with us taste. So how w I know you've done a Ted talk that I listened to that was very interesting thing and wants to look that up. We can put that in the show notes as well. We've got an aging world population and we have huge problems all around the world without, but their health care system. I think we probably can all agree with that. We're heading into times where chronic disease is going to be costing economically, governments in, in, in, you know, a lot of suffering around the world and a lot of resources. Mmm. So increasing health span is, is a very important piece of being able to lower the costs involved with chronic disease. Would you see that as being one of the areas where this this theory or science is really, really key and an important from a, from an economic standpoint as well as from the personal suffering standpoint?

Speaker 5: (33:39)
Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Right, right. I think the potential to benefit society is really there's a, there's a lot a DNA aging test, epigenetic aging tests can, can provide. So it is clearly the best tool, two, assess, aging accurate and precise way. Mmm. And so by using this tool, I mean, whether it's, you know, our company and our researchers doing, you know, in their own labs are their own ways. Mmm. Those interventions which will have the greatest benefit can be more rapidly identified and no, very okay track to be very cheap. I'm an actress. So this, I think this is, you know, beyond just individual testing, which I think is important. And, you know, very interesting people empower themselves by getting some information here, but broader for the broader impact it can have on society. It can be really profound. Yeah. And I know you've, you've done a little bit of work with you mentioned the, in your, in your talk you know, looking at things like sporting H, you know, like how if kids are really in the right age group or people who don't have documents working out how old they are.

Speaker 5: (34:56)
When they coming into countries perhaps as, as refugees without, without any paperwork and things like that. There's a, there's a, there's a whole lot of areas that this could be utilized and couldn't it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So the the youth age testing I think that's, there's sort of a, the, the, the consequences are not as, as grave as like, you know, that aging population in Europe, you know, to some extent, North America and Asia. But but I, it just goes to show the potential applications for something like that. And I actually just learned that, you know, I did some work with [inaudible] law enforcement in Germany a couple of years ago for some for forensics application of using this aging. You can sort of the gauge person of interest in different law enforcement investigations. And in part thanks that work actually I just found out that lie in Germany changed December Oh about 2019.

Speaker 5: (36:01)
Sort of allow this scientific approach, you too well know wow. To work out someone's is being adopted in a lot of different areas. And I mean, Oh yeah. And, and for me I think in working in the, in the health as a health professional and, and training people and so on, it's just going to give us another, I'm wiping the Nantucket toolkit to get people motivated and moving and having a benchmark is really important I think for us to, well, this is where we started from and hopefully through different health interventions, we can see other results. Is there any way that we can, is there any of those things that are quantified, like what, what people are, you know, that are doing your tests perhaps and then doing different interventions, obviously not as a clinical study, but are you gathering any of the data of the interventions that people are undertaking to change the biological age?

Speaker 5: (37:01)
Let's see. What has it effect? So I mean, we have to be sort of careful about this, right? So that, I mean, the personal information of ours customers is yes. Obviously I can only do so much, right? I mean we're not, we're not trying to but so what I can say, we work with clinics, certain clinics doctors. So the doctors are incorporating this test into part of their medical practice and whether they're advising certain, you know, dietary interventions or different exercise programs or they can use this for their medical practically, I mentioned Metformin earlier. We are working with the group by testing this. So that's something that we, yeah, we can say has had a, yeah, a two. The rate of aging in these, in the samples, the subjects that we've examined. Mmm, yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. So that's got an interesting future too. I mean, what, what are you think, so are there any interventions which have been proven besides a Metformin and growth hormone? Mmm. To actually slow down the aging or to pervasive stop the aging process? Mmm, well that have been proven to be beneficial as it, you know, like lifestyle interventions. So yes, yes, there are. So, but I, I needed qualify that. So this has been clearly shown to occur in laboratory animals, so model research organisms and a lot of these,

Speaker 4: (38:34)
These pathways a

Speaker 4: (38:35)
Evolutionarily shared all the way from, you know, simple East to or complex organisms like fruit flies and more recently into mammals like mice lab, mice rats or even nonhuman primates. So there's clearly potential. Mmm. You know some of these interventions are related to altering metabolic pathways, insulin response. Mmm. Mmm. I think one that's gained a lot of interest in you know, the broader news media is this compound resveratrol. Yes. Resveratrol found in a grapes in higher concentrations, in certain nuts. I'm certain it's been shown to activate certain pathways related to protecting our DNA or protecting our genes and genomes and also influencing that metabolism in certain ways. So in laboratory animals, there's clear evidence to show that aging can be slow to reverse. In humans it's not as clear. So again, it's more difficult to do these types of studies.

Speaker 4: (39:39)
Okay. Ethical and logistical reasons. Yeah. But the Metformin is a hot candidate drug especially because it is well tolerated. So, so this may be something that can be easily prescribed. And individuals we mentioned the study that came out last last fall where the the growth hormone and Metformin combination reverse the aging in this was in a small court of men from the ages of 52 late sixties, I think. Years of age. Mmm. In terms of those are for reversing the aging clock. There's also evidence showing that the clock can be slowed from simple lifestyle changes. So if you think about diet, so it appears that, you know eating more plants plant based foods, so fruits and vegetables. So right carotinoids levels in the blood. You know, indicators of the.

Speaker 4: (40:37)
Okay. Metabolism are associated with slower rates of aging. Interestingly, a fish, actually, those who consume more fish, it seems to have the greatest impact on a slowing the rate of aging. Well, okay. That's interesting, huh? Yeah. Even greater than the vegetarian diets. That's what the data indicates at this time, at least. Right. Also you know, we can look at things that accelerate the aging clock. Mmm. So certain corn oil certain insulin levels a triglyceride levels you know, elevated or, or, or levels that are out of whack or associated with an accelerated aging. So these are indicators of a poor diet. Yup. I think one that's a, everyone's sort of interested to hear or happy to hear is that actually moderate alcohol consumption. It's associated with a slower

Speaker 3: (41:34)
Rate of eating. So, so we have an all glass of red wine with berry in it,

Speaker 4: (41:40)
I think. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. But this has been a also shown to have beneficial effects on heart health. So it's interesting to see that the studies our agreement, you know, coming back, coming at it from different angles, but, you know, finding beneficial health, mental health.

Speaker 3: (41:55)
So the, the things that we sort of intuitively know that exercise lots of fruit and veggies and you know, that type of thing. It can definitely slow down the aging clock. It's an exercise aspect of it as Sierra, any sort of data or omit, it's how much and what types of exercise or anything like that.

Speaker 4: (42:22)
So not that I'm aware of. So not that I'm aware of. But that's, but that's interesting. What you say is, you know, people hear this and they say, okay, great, eat more vegetables. You know, I already knew that. Right. But it's interesting the study, but I think you can see, right. So, okay, yes, vegetables are associated with slow rates of aging. So increase that. So it gives, we can show that in the data, but but what's really interesting about the clock of the state, but if you want, if there was one thing you could pick to slow your rate of aging, actually it's fish, right? So it's, it's a it kinda shows you you know, we can kind of rank these. So what's the most important thing? So, you know, vegetables are important, but actually according to the data fishes is even more important. Mmm. And you knew, and also people that die. While I've been doing vegetables, I've been actively trying to do better in, and so I've already incorporated that, but, well, what else is there that that might be, it might be missing. Oh, so a olive oil seems to be also beneficial. A dietary component. It can be incorporated absolute rate of aging. So, so what the clock does is it's able to quantify these and really pinpoint with some precision what,

Speaker 3: (43:33)
Yeah, yeah. Rather than just one out a feeling as and what we've, you know, at the top, some studies have seen what about ketones and the key she turned on us. Any, any data there on MCT oils or ketone esters or anything like that?

Speaker 4: (43:52)
Again, I'm not familiar with those studies. We haven't conducted any and we're not working with anyone specifically looking at this sort of thing that I'm aware of some. Again, you know, a lot of institutes and clinics are incorporating different things. We don't necessarily know what they're doing. I mean, it could be very well be that, you know, some of these changes are being prescribed or administered in certain way. I simply don't know the answer to that.

Speaker 3: (44:16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, fair enough. So this is, you know, to actually get the data to get some concrete data is actually really, really helpful. And strengthening the arguments for reaching the goals and cutting out the, the donuts and the, the the biscuits in the sugar and so on. And, and the more data we have behind that, the beta what I had dr Andrew go Andrews on, on the podcast. We all would go, I'm looking at telling me and like something and NTA aging. Is there any sort of crossover between those sort of areas, like in the anti aging sciences in do you look at it telling me length is or anything like that in these biological tests or are they completely different area of science?

Speaker 4: (45:11)
It is different. It is different. So Tila mirrors have been I think before Horvath and Hanham's studies a few years ago came out showing the power of epigenetic aging assessments tumors were probably the most popular, well, I color test to look at this since then. You know, clearly that these DNA methylation clocks are by far the most accurate, most precise and robust to measure biological aging. Horvath and others tried to kind of assess how this interaction between Tealium or Lang and you know, epigenetic change and they found that they're not measuring the same thing. So they in the biology is they're looking at different things. And you know, I, I think for, you know, telomeres, you know, I just, in my opinion, I, I think they've been Sur surpassed by the power of the, you know, yeah.

Speaker 4: (46:07)
Inherent robustness of looking at epigenetics to assess aging. I think, you know, concrete example of this is so the telomere length, so the longer the telomeres, sort of the slower aging or more youthful, that's, that's the basic idea. And as those shrink, it indicates increased age or advanced age. That's, that's the basic idea. We find that this, you know, completely breaks down. When you look at som

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