FORMATTED TRANSCRIPT: THE PRICE OF TOMORROW - UNDERSTANDING BITCOIN & FREE MARKETS WITH JEFF BOOTH

Opening Quote

"I have empathy for the people that are living in fear, living - they're scared their job's going to go away. They're trying to make more money. They're measuring from that same system and not realizing that they're caught in a trap that they can't get out of inside that system."

Introduction

[Music]

Well, hey everyone. Welcome to Pushing The Limits. I am smiling from ear to ear because I'm just so, so ecstatic to have my guest today. He is a man that I've just admired for so long and followed his work and read his amazing book, The Price of Tomorrow. Jeff Booth, welcome to the show. You need no introduction. You're just absolutely amazing. Thank you for coming. I'm so stoked.

Jeff: Thanks, Lisa. Really, really pleasure to be here.

The Gratitude

Lisa: All right. You're a very, very busy man. So, and you're so generous with your time with all us little podcasters that are out there trying to share the knowledge and share your work. Because it's - yeah, I know you get a lot of requests. So really, really grateful there.

No Little Podcasters

Jeff: There's no little podcasters. Each person that you're doing this with is touching somebody else who you might be responsible for touching millions of people. So thanks for doing what you do.

Lisa: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. No, it really is like being a node in the network, right? Some nodes are bigger than others, but we've all got a part to play.

Jeff's Background

Lisa: Jeff, for those who don't know you, can you give us a little bit of a background on your story? Because it's quite an incredible journey as a technology expert who's now into the whole Bitcoin space and what you do. Just give us a bit of a rundown. In two seconds, give us your life. What do you do?

The Entrepreneur

Jeff: I don't know. I'm an entrepreneur primarily. I think that has always looked to: how do you build value for other people? How do you use technology? How do you build value for other people?

The Internet Company

So I saw the internet - what the internet was going to become - pretty early. I created a pretty sizable company at one time, about half a billion dollars worth of value on the internet.

A round trip that it went to zero while I was doing it. But I built it for about 20 years through dot-com crisis, through 2008, all sorts of different things.

The Learning

Most of the things that I found out that were - that kind of went right and wrong there - were, let's say, specifically wrong were me standing in the way of success rather than success itself. So a lot of learning through that process.

The Question

But through that process, I couldn't understand why prices weren't falling when all my friends in technology were building companies and using technology to deliver value. And why were prices going up when everyone I knew was creating that?

How were prices going up when we were using essentially technology to reduce labor or to make things more efficient so you could do more with less?

Writing the Book

And that got me to write a book about it. So I'd been talking about this concept for about 10 years and couldn't understand it. So I wanted to investigate what was the deal.

And I wrote a book - you just mentioned it before, but called The Price of Tomorrow: Why Deflation is Key to an Abundant Future - that explored two impossible things colliding into each other.

The Two Systems

The Natural State

The natural state of the free market, which was deflation - which every entrepreneur has to create value with what came before it, and we only use the things that give us more value. So we're a part of that. So how could that not deliver more value? Because we're a part of that. And so prices should fall.

The Credit System

But it was butting up into a credit-based system where money was lent into existence that couldn't allow the free market to exist.

The Collision

And so I wrote that book describing what would happen as these two - as we were on a collision course between two systems that we thought it was somebody else when it was really us.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.

The Bitcoin Paragraph

Jeff: And so then I spent a long time - at the end of the book I wrote one paragraph describing that Bitcoin might be a resolve to that paradox. Might allow us to operate in a completely different type of system that we've never seen before.

The Skepticism

But truth be told, at the end of that book, I probably at that time had a 5% probability that Bitcoin would fail in time in my head.

The Journey

And as a curious skeptic, I spent years and lots of time trying to essentially disprove everything I just said. And came to a point that we are - like you said before - we're all nodes in this new network.

The Reflection

And when we move our time into an honest system, that system reflects back at us.

Lisa: Yeah.

The Empathy

Jeff: And so that took a lot of time to go through in my own cognitive dissonance trying to understand this.

So when I look out at the people in the world today - kind of how hard this is to understand - I understand them. I have empathy for people that are living in fear, living - they're scared their job's going to go away. They're trying to make more money. They're measuring from that same system and not realizing that they're caught in a trap that they can't get out of inside that system.

Lisa: Yeah.

Understanding the Systems

The Double Click

Lisa: And if we double click into that - just so we've got these opposing forces. We're living in a credit-based economy. The debt is growing constantly as we see around the world, and we can feel that and the debasement of our currency.

The Inflation Requirement

Prices have to inflate under that system in order for the system to keep moving forward and growing. But at the same time, technology is deflationary. It makes things cheaper. And as you say, eventually would go to the marginal cost of the product, which would trend towards zero. But it's not allowed to be deflationary because it would break that system.

The Clash

So we've got sort of clashing systems. And this debt-based system that we're in - all around the world, this is - every country has massive debts.

The Fundamental Question

And I've always been asking myself, "Well, who do we all owe this money to?" I could never get my head around - if the States is in debt and China's in debt and Russia's in debt, who are we in debt to?

Why can't we just reset the system? And in my simplistic view of not knowing how these things work, but just from a simplistic view - why can't we just wipe the slate clean and start again?

The Fourth Turning

Basically, it's what we did in the Bretton Woods agreement. And this is what we do every 80 to 100 years, in The Fourth Turning, the book. We do this, and we've done this sort of throughout human monetary history.

Still Grappling

And I'm still, as you can hear, grappling with these concepts. But at the core of this is a way out that you and I now believe is the way forward, and that's Bitcoin.

Lisa's Journey

The Paradigm Break

And when I got into Bitcoin, just to give you a bit of a backstory - I came to it in a time when my whole paradigm was broken in the COVID crisis five years ago.

The Awakening

When I saw government overreach, I saw mandates happening that I didn't agree with. Freedoms being taken away from citizens. I thought I lived in a democracy. I thought I lived in one of the Commonwealth nations - Canada, like England.

The Fairy Tale

I'd grown up in this fairy tale world where places like Brazil and Venezuela had problems in Africa and other places. But we were lucky, and we lived in a democracy.

The Experience

And when I went through that experience and we lost our jobs - some family members lost their houses - and things broke apart and we were locked out of society. That was for me like, "Holy crap. We are not living in a free market, and we are not living in a democracy. And there is becoming more and more controls on what we do. The freedoms are being taken away."

The Bitcoin Entry

And that's what led me to go into Bitcoin and just really start studying it. And I came at the start for the money because I wanted to make money. I wanted to see - because I could see that Bitcoin was going up faster.

Staying for the Revolution

But I have stayed basically for the revolution - as Ricardo Salinas famously has said. And it's layer upon layer of an onion as I peel back more and more. And it's almost a spiritual journey now for want of a better description. I know that sounds ridiculous to a lot of people listening. But it is - I'm on this path that I don't understand yet.

The Spiritual Connection

Jeff: So I would say that - I wrote on Nostr pretty recently that whether you come down to Bitcoin from a higher spiritual awareness, a higher level of consciousness, or you're in Bitcoin for enough time living essentially on a system of honesty - you arrive at the same destination.

The Connection to Us

It has to be connected to us. And it has to be connected to us because all money is - all money should be - is an abstract concept for the trade between us.

The Theft

So if it becomes something else, that money is stolen from you. If it has to go through theft to be able to - then going through theft, it would have to divide you too.

Lisa: Mmm.

Breaking Down the Credit System

For the Listeners

Jeff: And again, let's explore this first for listeners who don't know this like you do or if you have any questions on this.

The Credit-Based System

So we have a credit-based system today. And the credit-based system lends money into existence. So there's no money, and it's lent into existence. So when a bank lends you money, there was no cost from them to lend you the money. And you have an interest rate on money that didn't exist - just an arbitrary concept of money.

Lisa: So the money isn't actually sitting in the bank. It's not your money. It's a debt-based system that has to grow.

The Deflation Problem

Jeff: And so that system - when people say "we can't allow deflation from that system," they are correct. Because deflation would make that debt more and more expensive, and the debt would be wiped out.

The Collapse

And if the debt was wiped out and your house was wiped out with it, and the prices kept falling and every bank collapsed, you would beg people to print more money.

Dictatorships

And by the way, every dictatorship in the world arises from that very same thing. Because people give away their individual freedoms to somebody to save them.

Lisa: To save us.

Jeff: Yeah. To save us.

The Exponential Requirement

But so that system requires exponential increasing of monetary supply forever. It cannot allow deflation. Yet deflation is the natural state of a free market.

Lisa: Yeah.

The Big Deal

Jeff: So what does that mean? And this is why it's such a big deal, and this is why it's so hard to be able to understand. Because both systems are true.

We know for sure that the natural state of the free market is deflation because we choose things that give us more value. And so that's true. And we've never seen a world that operates like that.

Lisa: So in other words, we've actually never seen a true democracy.

Never a True Democracy

Jeff: Exactly. We've never - so all of these things are tied together because the statement - and then you don't have to get into "it's that person's fault or that person's fault."

The System Dynamic

It's a system dynamic that is - and we want to blame somebody. But it's a system problem that can't be resolved from the system.

The Cognitive Dissonance

And what that ends up happening inside your brain - and is probably less so for you right now because you've heard it over and over and over again - but the first time you hear it, it creates a cognitive dissonance in your brain that two statements are true and you have to choose.

The Struggle

Lisa: Right. You're trying to rattle around trying to make these both true at the same time - trying to essentially take Bitcoin onto your existing system or take some - instead of holding those thoughts differently.

Different Paradigms

Because the outcomes from both thoughts give totally different paradigms to the world. Everything is different from both different thoughts. And it's really hard to hold those thoughts together because the future is always bent into reality by our thoughts and actions.

The Paradox

But the paradox is we shape tomorrow trapped in our existing thinking.

Lisa: Right.

Trapped in Our History

Jeff: So we're just - everybody - we're creating. So if you just - the problem. But you and I today right now on this - your entire history, everything your parents, their parents, their parents, and everything that took you in all your journey to take you to this moment. And the same for me to this moment to the only moment that matters.

The Limited Choice Set

But what ends up happening is we don't change very - it's not that we couldn't go from zero to one. You've actually experienced this in a whole bunch of your past and what you've done. And you look at other people and you go, "They could do it too."

But they don't know they could do it. They can't see it. And so their past creates a choice set, and a very limited choice set going forward. But they don't know it because it's true for them.

The Zero to One Moment

And then you and I come together on this podcast and have a moment that maybe is a zero-to-one moment for you or somebody that's listening. And all of a sudden, their choice in the future looks totally different from their own thoughts.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.

The Prison Doors

Lisa: The prison doors are open. It's just that a lot of us don't know how to walk through it. And we don't see it. And we don't know it.

The Us vs. Them

And it creates this "us versus them" - which was one of the things, the themes in your book that really resonated with me. Because for years I've been angry at the system. I've been angry at the government. I've been angry at every authority that I could possibly ever be angry at.

The Systems Perspective

And when you look at it from a systems point of view, and when you understand what you say - at least to the degree that I understand it currently - you realize that we're all pawns in this system that's broken. And we cannot fix it from that system. We need a new system in order to get to this free market state.

The Firefighter Example

Because if we are "us versus them" - I'll give you an example. My husband is a firefighter, and they're going through strikes at the moment because they are trying to get more wages because they're not keeping up with inflation. But it's not even - nowhere near keeping up with debasement.

The Offer

They're being offered 1% when you and I know that we're really losing 12% a year. And the firefighters - who are the representative really of the average person, the school teachers, the policemen, the people that run our world and do all the things for other people in this world - are not able to...

The Breaking Point

It's getting to the point in our country at least where they are not able to pay the bills. And you're having to take a second job and you're having to take a third job. And you're thinking twice about having children. And all of these things - the downstream consequences.

The Concentration

And the middle classes are being reamed out. And there's a lot of wealth concentrating up at the top at the very, very few percent of the population. And there's more and more of a gap happening in this K-shaped economy type of situation.

The Anger

And that creates an anger and a resistance. And it's the "us versus them." It's everybody fighting everybody. And it's the system that's broken. And you feel like saying, "Everybody shut up. It's the system. You've got to work on the system, not - blaming's not helping."

Lisa: Yeah.

Knowing What Would Happen

Jeff: And but that's kind of the point. And that's why I wrote that in the book. I dedicated a chapter to knowing for sure what would happen as a result of broken money and a result of technology wanting to make your life easier and easier so you worked less and less and less, and you gained abundance forever from the natural force of the free market.

Inside the Bubble

But most people not being able to see that because their lives were getting worse and worse and worse. And they were inside a bubble thinking it was somebody else. And they were yelling and getting - and no matter what they did inside that bubble, everything got worse.

No Solution from the System

There was no leadership change. There was no anything from that system that wouldn't get worse.

Understanding Human Nature

And so if you just understand human nature - even if you said what we just said about how people think and how hard it is to think differently, especially if you're facing that almost injustice that you're getting - you don't know. You're trying to do your best, and it's getting worse and further and further.

I can empathize with why people get trapped there.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.

Global Phenomenon

Jeff: I can. And so this is a global phenomenon. You mentioned something before on Commonwealth country.

Stealing from Others

Well, every Commonwealth country and the US effectively was stealing from Africa and South America and Central America for years. What gave us our privilege was winning a zero-sum game against somebody else who had to lose for us to win.

Lisa: And that's shocking. It's shocking.

Understanding the System

Jeff: It's so - once you understand that, once you understand how this system is wired, it's - that's why I ask people to keep on saying: if it's true, either fight me on it.

The Challenge

Is the natural state of the free market deflation? Either fight me on that - find a way to say that that is not true. Otherwise, start there. And then ask yourself why don't you live in a free market? And what would be the consequence?

Who Steals Your Money?

Who gets to steal your money? What would be the consequence of you living in the other market? It has to get worse and worse and worse. And you're giving it your strength. So because you have to choose. It's one or the other.

The Surveillance State

People are worried - what you just said - every government right now going into surveillance, taking away your individual rights and freedoms and surveilling you without your knowledge through - that is obviously the next step of what they have to do.

What They Have to Do

What a system that is based on theft would have to do to keep you locked in, to keep you from rising up - they would have to do that. They would have to be able to censor you. They have to close off your bank accounts. They have to - "this person is essentially a pawn in my system."

It's You

And then carry that forward. It's not them. There is no "they." It's you. Because it's so easy - it's so easy to think that - to stay in that hate and that and everything else.

But you only empower it when you could just move your time and energy to a system that doesn't care about that system.

Every 10 Minutes

In Bitcoin, every 10 minutes there's a new block. Doesn't care what I'm saying right now. Doesn't care that every 10 minutes you have an honest ledger imposing a new discipline across the world.

Lisa: Imposing a new discipline. And it's fixed, and it's not able to be manipulated or controlled or printed into oblivion. And you cannot change the protocol. And it's a winner-takes-all protocol.

Lisa: Yeah.

Misunderstanding Bitcoin

Jeff: Which is why people misunderstand it. Well, they misunderstand it for a number of reasons.

The Reset

If you had this type of thing that reset humanity towards abundance, that destroyed any ability to rent-seek and create power from stealing from other people against the highest powers of the world today - and if you were listening to the media from the system - of course you would think you'd be scared about Bitcoin.

Lisa: Yeah.

Taking Back Power

Jeff: Because it takes away the power - it takes away the - the power that should have always been yours.

Lisa: Yeah.

Jeff: As a free human being.

The Free Market

As a free human being. Like, the free markets are more powerful because we have to compete with each other to provide value.

The Only Way to Win

The only way to win more on Bitcoin over the long run is contribute more to society. And then once you've contributed more to society and you're winning, then somebody's going to compete with you to contribute more against you. And you're going to have to keep up constantly contributing more to society to win more of the pie. And everyone wins.

It's an infinite game versus a zero-sum game.

The Transition Question

Lisa: And what happens - how do we - how do we transition? Because this is - we're at a crux point in history. We've got AI going massively forward, technology going massively forward, exerting deflationary pressures, taking jobs, breaking the system faster really.

How do we get from the old system to the new system without World War III? Because this is - at the crux of it, right? We're going to go to World War III otherwise.

Fear vs. Control

Jeff: Yeah. So I would say right now that you're jumping into fear. Because of this, all you control is your own thoughts and actions.

The Reflection

And so the more time that you move into the new system, it will reflect back at you how beautiful the world is. How - because people operating on this...

Not Crazy

When - and I don't want to say this because some people look at Bitcoiners and they go, "Those - some of those people are crazy" from their existing system.

It's Us Changing

But when you're inside this system and actually you understand that it's us that's changing. It's us that's moving our energy into a new system. And it's us that's starting to...

What to Expect

Then what would you expect to see on an honest monetary protocol that can't be cheated? You'd expect to see more honesty. You'd expect to see more value creation. You'd expect to see people that understood that - live in a high-trust society instead of a low-trust society.

The Unexpected

You'd expect all the things that, by the way, that I didn't expect until I moved more of my time into Bitcoin. Because I was looking at it from the other system too.

The Transition in Themselves

And so every person that's making that transition is actually making the transition in themselves. And it's themselves that then is touching other people through their actions, that then is changing other people.

No Light Switch

And so there's no light switch. It's not like one day. It's not like one day we're living in one system and one day we're living in the other.

The Galileo Example

When Galileo went up against the church and said they - the Earth - was not the center of the galaxy, it was I think 365 years before there was an apology.

Lisa: Right.

Seeing Outside the System

Jeff: So our minds - even if we see - and you could - in Galileo's time, how did he see that? He looked outside the system that everyone else was looking from with a higher telescope. Everybody else was looking inside the system.

The Spread

And as telescopes moved across the world and anybody could see that that was true, it still took a long time. Because the power - but again, the power of our past - we don't want to change. We don't want to update our model because updating our model of what reality looks like feels like fear.

Lisa: Feels like...

The Easy Path

Jeff: So it's easier just to stay comfortable and blame other people than realize it's actually us that has to change.

Self-Responsibility

Lisa: And when we think about that and having - I mean, this is about taking self-responsibility and actually moving your time into this. And I've heard you say this over and over: move more of your time into the Bitcoin sphere, into building in this world.

The How Question

And I'm like, "How, Jeff? How do I do that from a place of - like from an actual technical perspective? How do I do that?"

The Big Player

You run Ego Death Capital. You have a venture - fully 100% Bitcoin venture capital fund that funds and builds in the Bitcoin sphere. You're a big player in the world. I'm not. I'm living in a small town with limitations.

The Practical Question

How do I shift my businesses - my health consultancies, my clinics, my biotech company - into the Bitcoin world and start building there when I have partners that are not in the Bitcoin space?

The Shift

So like, just from a practical perspective, I'm going - I've been in the longevity and health optimization space for the last 10 years. But I'm shifting more and more of my podcast and my content and my things into Bitcoin and to talking about the technology advances and things like that as well. Because I can see this as being absolutely fundamental.

Health and Wealth

Like, I've been trying to help people live longer, healthier lives. But that also means you have to come from a place of strength financially and to get the things that you need to stay well.

Personal Experience

And I've lived this. I've lived with my mom for the last 10 years. Spent a fortune trying to save her life. Like literally. This is coming down to the nuts and bolts of things in people's daily lives.

The Core Question

How do we transition our time into a system and build into a system? I mean, I think it's a positive thing that my podcast is doing, hopefully, and spreading the word and talking to people about this and just having discussions. But how do we build on it? The Lightning Network is coming...

Lisa: Yeah.

Jeff's Own Journey

The Story

Jeff: So it's exactly like you're saying. So - and you've heard me say this a whole bunch of times, maybe people that are listening to your podcasts haven't - but I wrote this book. I knew this was true because I'd gone down to the sand on both systems.

The Insight

And I saw something that very few people had ever seen. And it was just an insight that was always there. It was an easy insight. Like it should be simple for everybody to - like it shouldn't be hard. The natural state of the free market is deflation. That shouldn't be a hard thing to understand.

The Implications

And that insight and knowing that in that insight - along with how fast technology would move would mean faster and faster deflation and faster and faster abundance.

As the jobs left, we would have more abundance faster. We wouldn't need the job that was artificially created to make prices rise to be able to...

Should Be Simple

So it should be something radically simple. It seemed hard for people in their current space to understand. But even through that - and you've heard me say this - I talked all over the world. I was well-respected. I think my book sold 600-700,000 copies, published in 27 languages.

The Realization

And I woke up one night realizing I'm a total hypocrite. Because I was on all of these boards in kind of fiat land - just like you were doing, just like everything else everyone else is doing. And I was buying more Bitcoin with this. And I was telling myself I'm helping people. But 90% of my time was in the fiat world.

Lisa: Yeah. And...

Lisa: Yeah, I know.

The Struggle

Jeff: And but again, I've struggled with the same thing. Why I tell the story over and over and over again is because - because everyone - because people look at me as a thought leader, and I struggled because I didn't see it in myself.

The Decision

And it wasn't until I realized you couldn't have both. I had - so I started Ego Death. And I don't think I've said this before. When I left all the other boards and the money, my wife said, "What are you doing?"

No Income

"We don't have any income. We don't have any - and what if Ego Death doesn't work?"

I said, "It doesn't matter. I can't do this anymore. I have to marry my time where I want it to go."

Lisa: Yeah.

Living Off Savings

Jeff: And so we made a decision we would just live off savings until it worked. And we would make it work.

The Unseen

But it was that decision that - and from that spot, I would have never seen all of the things that I've been able to contribute to and all of the companies and all the beauty and all of the people that I now interact with every day. I wouldn't have seen it.

Looking Back

So I look back at that time and I look back at that change and thinking - I would have reinforced my reality. It would have been true to me. I would have thought it was somebody else but me.

Sharing the Lesson

And I share this lesson because my life is so much different. It was good before. But what I see today and what the kind of the beauty that is moving and how fast this is moving and the people that I get to spend time with - it's so staggering. It's so amazing.

Why Things Are Bad

That when people talk about how bad things are over here, I know why they're bad. I know why they're bad because they're giving their energy to that system. And I can't make the change for them. They have to make the change.

Lisa: Yeah.

Can't Answer for Everyone

Jeff: So how - you asked specifically how do you make the change? I can't actually answer that for any individual person.

Moving Your Time

All I can say is: as you move more of your time, you reached out to me on essentially a cold call. And I said yes. And so you're moving your time. And this thing is going to help other people.

Creating Value

You're going to create value for other people, which means you're going to - it's going to feel good. It's going to increase.

Finding New Ways

You're going to find from this new ways to integrate payments into your business, integrate this. And you're going to provide a path to - or likely a path - for other people to learn more about Bitcoin and provide a whole bunch of value to them through whatever you're great at.

The Expansion

Moving that great into a network - into this network - it'll just expand. And just give it a bit of time and give it a bit of patience.

Lisa: Because I'm like one of these people that wants it all to shift now.

The Opportunity

Jeff: Well, so - but now look at what the free market would value. You want to be excited if 99.9% of people - even probably 90% of Bitcoiners - are still measuring Bitcoin in pieces of paper.

Lisa: Yep. Right.

The Biggest Opportunity

Jeff: So if 99% of people still don't understand Bitcoin and you're learning and starting to understand it at a really deep philosophical level and starting to understand the technology and looking for all of the ways that this is moving and most people don't - wouldn't that be one of the biggest opportunities in the free market?

Lisa: Yep. Exactly.

Celebrate

Jeff: That people don't know right now is what you should be celebrating because it's the opportunity to provide crazy value to people who need to know.

Imposter Syndrome

Lisa: But you feel like - I think there's that old imposter syndrome that pops his head up and goes, "You don't know enough about Bitcoin to teach people about Bitcoin." You don't know - that old adage that you...

Everyone Starts Somewhere

Jeff: Yeah, Lisa. I don't know. So okay, through this journey - I'm going to just mention some names. James Lavish, Natalie Brunell, Sam Callahan, but Michael Saylor...

Through this journey, many of those people came to Bitcoin after me. And I watched them be exactly like you. And many other names. And there were many other names before me.

They All Started

That all of those people had to start somewhere. And no one knew this. And all they did is just made a decision to apply their talent in the best thing that they could do to be able to provide value to other people. And it exploded for them. Every one of them.

The Heroes

And so it's just - it's fascinating when I watch people talking about kind of their heroes or people that they really admire today. All of them - and knowing these people - their entire - like they're really good friends of mine - and knowing they had the same journey as me, same journey as you, same journey as everyone.

Lisa: They're just bigger now.

Jeff: They're just - they're just people.

Lisa: Yeah.

Jeff: They're just people that moved their time into a system that they felt that's where they wanted to spend their time.

Lisa: Yeah.

The Technical Side

Lisa: I mean, I love Natalie Brunell. And I listen to everything that Sailor - the deep philosophical approach that he has too. I think I'm just so excited about this whole thing.

The Struggles

I think the struggles I have partly are the technical side of it. So, you know, like just pivoting the conversation a little bit to - you're working on the technical side of it because Bitcoin - you have that what do you call that trilemma? The blockchain trilemma.

The Scalability

You've got - so Bitcoin can only process seven transactions per second on the base layer. So the scalability has to be built on top of that. And this is where I start to get confused.

The Interview

Like, I'm interviewing Brandon Bush, who's the Lightning Network - tomorrow in New Zealand. And you're a fan of this, and you've actually talked to Brandon at times, I think, on the Lightning Network.

The How

And I'm just starting to work out: how do I integrate this? Like, from a technical perspective? Because I'm a complete technical numpty. And I'm like, how do I actually do the doing?

The Scaling Solutions

All of these scaling solutions that you and Ego Death and the companies that you're investing in - tell us a little what's happening in that space. Because this is where the rubber meets the road and the scaling of this.

Medium of Exchange

And you've said before that Bitcoin really needs to become a medium of exchange. Is that correct? For this to really take off?

And then I hear other people that go, "Ah, it's just a store of value, and it's just fine as a store of value." But to me, it makes logical sense that we need to be using this on the daily for our transactions for this to really take hold. How do you settle that?

The Complexity

Jeff: Yeah. So some of those concepts that you're asking - and remember, there's just no way to get this in a simplified version in this amount of time that we're doing this, in one go. Because you're talking about first a protocol that is scaling in layers just like the internet.

The Layers

And the technical components of how the scaling in layers is bringing more and more value to more and more of society. And entrepreneurs are fixing that. And open-source entrepreneurs too are fixing and developing on layers on this protocol that are moving at that speed.

As a Currency

Now your other question is using as a currency - of course it has to be used as a currency.

Why Assets Exist

If you just argue the other thing - why do you need assets to hold your value over time and to not lose?

Lisa: Why do...

Jeff: Yeah. So you - mean, exactly. The only reason you need assets is you're pricing assets from a system where you can't store your money in money. That's why assets exist. It's nonsense.

If you could store your money in money, you would store your money in money - except for your house, maybe.

Lisa: No, no.

The House Example

Jeff: But but again, but the asset of your house is turned into an asset instead of a place you live with your family.

Lisa: Correct.

Financialization

Jeff: Yeah. And it's - and then it's become financialized. And now families can't live in the house because they get priced out of it because the - because an asset is saying, "My - I can't store my money in money." So everybody races into the same trade. And now people can't live in houses.

Lisa: Yeah.

Backwards Thinking

Jeff: Right. So if you just start - if you start thinking about some of these questions that you're - your people are forming their worldview on that are so backwards because money has always been broken.

Of Course

So because money's always been broken, of course you'd have to use this as money. And then of course there would be opportunity for entrepreneurs to create value on top of Bitcoin to be able to extend it into a monetary network.

You Don't Need to Know

And so Breeze is one of the companies that - you don't need to know the technology, the deep, deep technology, just like you don't need to know how the protocol layers of the internet work to use this Zoom call.

Lisa: Right. Right. Right.

Not a Requirement

Jeff: It's not a requirement because people have gone in before you to build all of these protocols that now you can just use the technology. And it gives you value - gives us value to be able to...

The Value

In a Zoom call, you can touch millions of people for free - time free on Zoom, free on you and me - where if you tried to touch millions of people in any prior time in history, it would have cost you a fortune. Right? So this is kind of what I'm describing.

Of Course

So of course - and this is also why we moved - I created Ego Death or helped create Ego Death with Nico and Andy - is by moving the time into what had to come and seeing the entrepreneurs that were building some of the technology to make it really easy to use this as payments.

Breeze Today

Like, you could use Breeze today on any app - open source, completely - and immediately you have payments globally. Global payments that can't be stopped.

Lisa: Wow.

Unlimited Speed

Jeff: Unlimited speed. Like you could - and it's free to be able to plug this in to anything you're doing. Anybody who wanted to pay for any of your services.

Not Just Breeze

And there's not just Breeze, but there's tons of different companies in that - all using the Lightning Network, all driving payments.

The Business Case

So now you have - in system A, in your business, you probably pay two and a half to 3% to Visa anytime somebody wants to pay you - to take a currency. You pay a fee to take two and a half to 3% to take a currency that's losing money.

Lisa: And in this system...

Lisa: Exactly.

Jeff: In this system, you pay nothing to take a currency that's not losing money.

Lisa: So of course...

The Future

Jeff: Just from the businesses - because the businesses are going to start doing it - because we're going to look back at this old system and go, "I can't believe those - those cavemen did that. I can't believe they actually did that for so long."

More Value

Where - because now you can offer more value to the people who you value - your customers - because you're not paying Visa or Mastercard or losing money in your currency.

Lisa: Yeah.

The Market Will Move

Jeff: And so of course the market is going to move there. And of course the entrepreneurs that are building there first are going to create a lot of value for their users.

Privacy

So that's what's happening. And privacy is coming to Bitcoin as well. I would suggest - especially where - I would suggest specifically where you are or anyone listening - go and set up a federation at Fedi.

Lisa: Uh-huh.

What is Fedi?

Jeff: Because Fedi is a wallet community but gives privacy of communications and money that cannot be stopped. And you can control it. You can set up a federation or join a different federation and get the benefits.

Complete Privacy

The company can't see any of the transactions. Governments can't see any of the transactions. It's completely private. And these types of things are needed.

Lisa: Yeah.

Scaling Bitcoin

Jeff: Because we've got to be able to scale Bitcoin against a system trying to drive more and more control.

Lisa: Yeah.

Capital Controls

Lisa: Because this is the other thing. You've got things like the government is doing more and more capital controls, more and more controlling of you getting your money out of your bank, your money out of your bank to get into Bitcoin - on-ramping, off-ramping, all of that type of stuff.

Taxation Chaos

The taxation situations is chaos all around the world. It's different. And that's one of the things that stopped me from using it for day-to-day payments because I have to work out: how do I do the taxes at the end of the year when I've got thousands of transactions?

Basic Fundamentals

So just like those sort of basic technical fundamentals that I'm sort of grappling with at the moment: how do I pay my local coffee maker for my coffee in the morning using the Lightning Network? Educating them on it.

Interviewing Brandon

That's why I'm interviewing Brandon tomorrow about the Lightning Network - understanding what Fedi is, how it works. All of these scaling solutions that you've been building for the last few years and actually talking about those and getting those out there more for the people to actually...

Privacy Matters

Because privacy is another massive, massive problem as we get more and more controlled as a people in our countries.

The Move

Like, you've recently moved from Canada to Florida, I believe. Did you do that because of the situation in Canada with the leadership there not being so good - a bit like New Zealand's leadership? And the past, especially our past government. The one we have now slightly better.

The Controls

But the controls that were starting to be exerted upon us - how do you not be in a fear state about that and still go move forward? You've had to shift your whole family, sort of thing. Do we need to do that?

Not From Fear

Jeff: Yeah. So it's not from fear, but it is - it's out of flexibility.

Lisa: So...

No Fear

Jeff: So it's like - no, I don't have any fear at all. But I've constantly said - I've watched as this has emerged. And we just elected a central banker. And the policies are very much...

The Truckers

And I was one of the Bitcoin nodes in the truckers' dispute.

Lisa: Wow.

The Government Response

Jeff: So - and then the government came after me through media. And I saw how society could be manipulated so bad.

Lisa: Yeah.

Blew Me Away

Jeff: And not see it - not see that they were being...

Lisa: A good... completely blew me away too.

Lisa: Yeah.

The Pattern

Jeff: So you can see - you can see some of the actions that as Canada took - went more and more to socialism, more and more and more - and more people hurt. So they're voting for more of it.

The Decision

And that just said, "Okay, for me, I need flexibility."

Lisa: Yeah.

Speaking About a Different System

Jeff: As I'm talking about a different system. And it is - and that system is right now against the control system. And so I'm going to hear what the government is saying. And I'm going to hear what the people of the government are saying because what they're saying is, "We want more of that."

They don't know they want more of it. And so that's why I made a choice.

Crazy Times

But there's a lot of places in the world right now that are - we're moving into a crazy time. Technology is moving faster, which means debt has - technology is moving exponentially on one side, meaning debt has to grow exponentially on the other side.

Looking Around

And if you're measuring from the debt-based system, that debt has - like, look around. At the rich are getting richer and richer and richer and richer. And still they're all involved in politics and that system. Because it's not the free market, it has to control more, has to surveil more, has to do all of these things.

What's Coming

So because - like, yeah, I wrote a book about this. I could see what was coming. I can see what's coming now. And so it was - I did it to have flexibility - whether the US is my last stop or a stop along the way.

Lisa: You might just...

Jeff: Yeah, exactly.

Keeping Options

I just wanted - and I kept my Canadian citizenship. I love Canada. I love the... But where it's going, it's going to get worse before it gets better in Canada. I can see it.

Lisa: Yeah. Can see it. Yeah.

Lisa's Situation

Lisa: And I'm in a situation where we cannot leave the country because I have a disabled mom who cannot travel. So you are - for better or worse - you're going to have to stand and fight on this hill.

Spending in Bitcoin

Jeff: Yeah. Let me come back to - because you asked a different question about spending in Bitcoin.

Lightning is pretty private. And Fedi is completely private. And Fedi uses - inside a federation, if you were trading within somebody in your federation, it's not even on Lightning. It's on eCash, so it's completely private.

Outside the Federation

If you're trading with somebody outside, it's in eCash, and then it goes through Lightning to trade with somebody. So a wallet there is really safe. And I would just use it.

I Spend in Bitcoin

So I spend in Bitcoin. I spend in Bitcoin every day.

Lisa: Wow.

The Tax Question

Jeff: And having - again, could somebody come back and say, "You owe this much tax for your coffee"?

The Power

Imagine them doing that if just a whole bunch of people - instead of marching down the street - just started spending on their coffee. It's - mess, right? It's just so much more powerful when your actions align with that.

Virtually Impossible

And it's - so it'd be virtually impossible to stop, virtually impossible to stop, because of the privacy that you have operating in an honest system.

The Free Market Finds a Way

And you're going to have - in the worst countries in the world, you always have - free market still finds the way. Government states, "Here's the currency conversion, here's the mandatory currency conversion," and there's always a black market rate.

As Governments Get More Control

So as governments get more central and more control, the opposite always happens where there's always a relief valve. So the faster the release valve moves, the faster that provides value to society, the faster it topples governments. And we create change within the system and the new rails can be built.

The Venezuelan Example

Lisa: And I think part of the problem is that we've lived - I was listening to a gentleman from Venezuela on Raoul Pal's podcast. I've forgotten his name right now. But he'd seen as a child the hyperinflation, the banks crashing, the coercion from the government, all of that.

The Advantage

So he said it was the biggest advantage for him because he knew what was sort of coming. He can see what's happening in the West. We're just like the frogs in the pot - boiling slowly - and we don't know that we're boiling.

The Delusion

And we look at places like Venezuela and other places with hyperinflation and think, "Well, the poor people. Luckily that's not us." That is us.

The COVID Experience

And we have this - I saw it during the COVID situation. I was on the side of not taking the big V. Where we were completely locked out of society. We were - from one day to the next - basically lepers in our own country.

The Reshaping

And that sort of changes your whole - that just reshapes your whole look on the world. And yeah, there was a lot of anger and a lot of, you know, fight in you that wants to fight against the system and be angry.

The New Place

But listening to you, I've sort of come to a new place of - I'd rather be focusing on the positive rather than deep-diving into the negative. And I do it because...

Rising Above

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. The more that you rise above that, your energy just moves to the positive because you can't change the other. There's nothing you can do to change it.

Fighting It

In fact, fighting it keeps its strength over you.

Lisa: Keeps its strength.

More Powerful

Jeff: It makes it more powerful. And so I'm not saying anybody's - welcome to do whatever they want if their life looks like they want it to do.

Seeing in Others

But I find it fascinating that people can't see - you can easily see what somebody else is doing to hold them back. But it's so hard to see in ourselves.

Lisa: Oh, totally. Totally.

Jeff: Everyone can see it in us. We can see it in everyone else, but we can't see it in ourselves.

The Tragedy

And it's the tragedy. And seeing it in yourself, realizing that you have complete control for the mirror image that you see in the world. And if you feed that image, it's not them - it's you.

Hard to Hear

And that sometimes when you say that, it's really hard to hear. Because you want to - because you want to hold on to, "No, it isn't. It's those other people. It's those other people. How dare you say it's me?" And I understand why.

Agency

But we all have agency. And we control our thoughts and actions. So events can happen to us, but we still have ultimate control of how we view those events.

Lisa: Yeah.

Time and Process

Lisa: And I think it takes - it's a time and a process thing. But I've seen other friends of mine who have gone down deep, dark spirals because of what's happened. And they're just stuck in a place of negativity and nihilism. And "the world's going to hell in a handbasket, and there's nothing I can do." And "the harder I work, the less I have."

Partly True

And all of which may be partly true. But the thing is, it's better to focus on the positives and on the joyful optimism of what technology can bring us, what Bitcoin can bring us, what this network of wonderful people building in the space can bring us. And focusing on the things.

Health Situations

Same with the health situations that I've been in with my parents and being angry at the system - and realizing that all of the technologies, the breakthroughs that we're having is not getting out to the clinics. That the people are not getting access to the stuff. That we're prevented from having the stuff that will actually help us heal.

Fighting For

And then fighting to get those things and working with people to understand health optimization and prevention and all of these things rather than the band-aid approach. And doing what I can to be positive in that world and helping the individual live their best life.

Mom's Situation

And with mom's situation, she - written off so many times: "There's nothing you can do. And she's dying, and there's no coming back from this." I've been told that a dozen times in the last 10 years.

Still Here

And she's still going, and she's still here. And she's still got a good quality of life. And she's got some disabilities. But we're still here. And they're not right.

Don't Give Up

So I could have just given up and said, "Okay, you're right. She's dying." Or I can go, "No, I don't believe that. I'm going to find other people who can tell me something different." And I always find people who can say, "Yes, there is a way forward, and here's how."

The Right Team

And by doing that, I've managed to overcome quite a lot of obstacles along the way with the right team around me of people that have given me tools at the time that I needed for that situation.

You're Part of That

And you're a part of that. You're a part of that thing for me: find the people that have got a way forward, follow those people, learn from those people, adopt that in your life as best you can to journey.

Still Grappling

And I still, as you can hear, still grappling with a lot of these deep concepts. But I'm excited. I'm excited. And the more that we get to have these conversations and share this incredible gift that Satoshi Nakamoto - whoever he was, he, she, they - gift to humanity. It's a beautiful gift.

The Chance

And it's the chance for us to have a free market economy one day. And if you look at things like Peter Diamandis and what he does and the abundance mindset and that whole - just putting positivity out into the world, seeing the problems but going, "Right, how do I fix them?" It's a beautiful thing.

Lisa: Right?

One Day Could Be Today

Jeff: Yeah. And when you say like "one day," it's for you, for any single person - one day could be today.

Lisa: Right.

The First Global Free Market

Jeff: So I live in the first global free market - the front edge of the first global free market.

What Would That Look Like?

So what would that look like if everything is denominated in Bitcoin? That would look like it gets easier every year. That would look like my house five years ago was 300 Bitcoin. My house right now is eight Bitcoin.

Lisa: Yeah.

Five Years from Now

Jeff: Five years from now, it'll be under one Bitcoin. Energy prices are exactly the same. All prices of everything I have - everything I'm working in - is that same system.

The Light Switch

So people are asking when will this happen - like it's a light switch - and asking when it's going to happen for everyone because they're scared of what the world looks like right now and they're pricing everything from that.

Start Today

But if they just start today and move some of their time and then some more of their time, they can start living in the first global free market today.

Amazing and Beautiful

It's amazing and beautiful. And then what would that world look like where you have to contribute to other people to win? Then people would see that, and they would give - they would reinforce, and you would be helping other people.

So Different

It just looks so different than the world that people are trapped in. And so of course, once you're in this new space, you're not going to go back. You can't believe you once were there when you're in this new space.

It Doesn't Take Long

But it doesn't take - like it just literally doesn't take - today somebody could be listening to your podcast and make a decision.

The Stories

And you've heard me say this before too because I get people coming up all over the world saying that five years ago I was living in a car. And all I did is stopped buying coffee every day and started buying a little bit of Bitcoin. And my life's totally changed.

From Depression

People that were deep in - the worst depression - hated the world, had just said, "Today is the day," and started. And their lives completely changed.

Every Single Person

And every single person like - when I hear that over and over, it's just so magical. It's so - when - even what you said - that you first start hearing these things, and these concepts seem so distant, so foreign. But something - you know it's true.

Lisa: You know.

Your Subconscious Knows

Jeff: So you know in your consciousness what I'm saying is true. I laugh because every time I say "the natural state of the free market is deflation" - when I say what you just did, your subconscious nods.

Lisa: Yeah.

Everyone Nods

Jeff: Say it to a bunch of people, and they'll always nod. Because when you know something's true, your subconscious is telling you.

Then You Go Back

And then - but think about what ends up happening. And you know something's true, but then you go back and live in a different world.

Lisa: Yeah.

The More Time

Jeff: Every drive, every - it... So the more time that you put into the first global free market that ever existed, of course your life's going to change.

Lisa: Yeah.

Building in It

Lisa: I just want to start building everything that I do in it. I just have to work out the technicals - the wallets, the connections, the how to build it into everything that I do. And I'm capable of it.

Run a Meetup

Jeff: You know what you should do - just I'm not - what you should do. What you could do: run a meetup in your local community. If it's two people that show up, run a meetup. And have somebody come in for that meetup on Zoom or something like that and explain how just practically to do that.

It Will Grow

And then three people will show up, then five people will show up. And you're going to learn the process while you help other people.

Lisa: Yeah.

Theory vs. Practice

Lisa: It's exactly - I think that's the - because I've been - I'm very good at the theory and the study and the learning. And we've all got a different strength. My husband's very good at the technicals. So I leave him doing all the technical stuff. And so he's got a whole lot of jobs this week to do - installing things onto websites and doing these things.

Division of Labor

Because I spend a lot of time in the theory and the philosophy and the interviews and the doing all of that. And...

Respecting Time

Lisa: Yeah. I mean, I just want to respect your time, Jeff. I know we've rabbited on for a fair while. But it's just been so inspiring to me to think that I can start spending more time in this world. And we're starting to do that. We're starting to help other people learn about Bitcoin. We're doing that now.

The Beautiful Thing

And it's a beautiful thing. You don't want to keep the secret to yourself. If I hadn't got into this world five years ago, I wouldn't have been able to - like you say - we're not wealthy. We're not anything at all. But I've been able to spend a lot of money on my mom, and that was important for me to be able to do.

Because of Bitcoin

And that's because of Bitcoin - because of this - what we found. So it's just a beautiful gift. And it's going to keep going and being beautiful.

Get Off Zero

So everyone out there that is on zero at the moment - just start. Get curious. Start to learn from people like Jeff. All the wonderful people that you mentioned before. And there's so many that are out there - good teachers.

Get off zero. Start putting a cup of coffee away into Bitcoin whenever you can.

It Makes You Listen

And start to - because when you buy your first bit of Bitcoin, it makes you start to listen and pay attention and to dive deeper.

To My Friends

So I just try to get people - that's one of my favorite sayings to my friends who I'm sure are sick of me talking about Bitcoin - but get off zero. Just get off zero.

Learn Custody

Find out how to do custody - cold storage, all of that sort of technical stuff, which is a bit daunting at the start. But do it. And then get off zero. And then the rest will happen as you move. I think that's the best advice that you could give to someone if you're allowed to give advice these days.

Do Something

But just do something in this space. Do something. Start learning.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.

Closing Thoughts

Lisa: Jeff, you're a wonderful man. I just think you're just absolutely amazing. I'm so grateful for your time, as you can obviously tell.

Where to Follow

Any - so where can people follow your work? And you must get Jeff's book, everybody: The Price of Tomorrow - literally mind-blowing. It'll really get you thinking.

Where else can people sort of reach out to you? And what are you doing at Ego Death Capital?

Contact Information

Jeff: Yeah. They can reach me at [email protected] - E-G-O. Or my website is - if you're going to follow me on social media, make sure the social media is me. So go to jeffbooth.ca.

Important Articles

And there's a couple articles - actually important articles there - on how finding signal in the noisy world is a really important article to understand why Bitcoin is so different than other coins.

Social Media Verification

But more importantly, on jeffbooth.ca, I'll list any social media I'm on there. And if it's not listed there, then it's not me.

Lisa: Yeah. Because there's a lot of...

Scammers

Jeff: So many scammers. Yeah. There's so many scammers.

I Never Ask for Money

And just worth pointing out: I will never ask for money.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Verify Accounts

Lisa: So make sure you're following the right accounts. And yeah, go to jeffbooth.ca and get that book. That's the best place.

Final Thanks

Jeff, thank you so much for all you do for Bitcoin, all you do for the world. You're a wonderful man. Thank you. Really appreciate it.

Jeff: My pleasure. Really nice meeting you.