EP 157: All About Your Lymphatic System - What Nobody Told You

Dr Perry Nickelston Explains the Importance Of Your Lymphatic System and Why Its So Powerful

It's the clear liquid that surrounds the cells of your body. Except for cartilage, nails, and hair, your entire body is bathed in lymph. You are literally swimming in lymphatic fluid, so its nickname is the Body Aquarium.

If you have a chronic pain or illness like Lyme, Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue, IBS, Crohn's Disease, etc., you will have a lymphatic problem. You just need to discover how much.

About five years ago Dr Perry got very sick. H had many health issues and felt like crap all the time. He supposedly got better by medical standards, yet still felt terrible. Feeling bad was his new normal. When you get so used to feeling awful you just assume that's the way it is. You forget what good feels like. Well, you don't have to suffer.

Dr Perry's illness helped him discover why he felt so terrible and why nobody in medicine could help him. His lymphatic system was a complete disaster. You might be surprised to discover healthcare providers get very little education about the lymphatic system's role in poor health.

He learned all be could about the lymphatic system and brought himself back to feeling amazing again with what Lisa and Dr Perry talk about in this show.

Ever wonder why chronic pain doesn't get better despite all your therapy and medications? Your lymphatic system may be the problem. If the body can't rid of cellular waste during the healing process, the inflammation simply stays in the tissues causing pain. If it can't get out of the body, you can't get better.

Feeling hopeless, tired, fatigued, poor concentration and overwhelmed with lack of progress in your recovery? You need to check your lymph and Dr Perry shows you how. The lymph is connected to your brain and your brain can't function optimally when the lymph is dysfunctional.

Dr Perry Nickelston shares with Lisa everything you ever wanted to know and all the things you never even thought to ask, about the lymphatic system. 

You can find out more about the courses Dr Perry offers and all his resources at 

www.stopchasingpain.com and find him on instagram under the handle @stopchasingpain 

Perry Nickelston, DC, NKT, FMS, SFMA, is a Chiropractic Physician with primary focus on Performance Enhancement, Corrective Exercise, and Metabolic Fitness Nutrition and trained fromThe American College of Addictionology and Compulsive Disorders. 

He is an expert in myofascial, orthopedic, medical and trigger point soft tissue therapy. A member of the Board of Directors and Medical Staff Advisor for AIMLA (American Institute of Medical Laser Application). Dr. Perry teaches healthcare professionals all over the world how to successfully use Class IV Deep Tissue Laser Therapy in alleviating pain. Director of clinical protocols and training for LiteCure Medical Lasers specializing in Myofascial Laser treatments.

Dr. Perry is an expert in movement assessment and diagnosis. Certified and trained as a Functional Movement Specialist (FMS) and Selective Functional Movement Assessment Specialist (SFMA). He uses programs designed to find your source of painful dysfunction and correct it the site of pain improves. A regular columnist for Dynamic Chiropractic, Practice Insights, Chiropractic Economics, To Your Health Magazine, Advance Physical Therapy, PT on the Net, LiveStrong, StrengthCoach, and other industry publications for health and fitness.

After suffering a severe back injury and recovering with laser therapy, he decided to dedicate himself to offering this amazing treatment modality to others. Creator of the Core 4 RRTT Recovery and Regeneration Program for maximum pain relief. A self treatment program whose sole purpose is to empower you to take back control of your life from chronic pain.

He is a 1997 graduate from Palmer Chiropractic University and a master fitness trainer with over 25 years experience in the health industry. Suffering from obesity as a teenager and overcoming all of the emotional strife that accompanies being overweight, Dr. Perry dedicated himself to teaching others how to get in shape and lead a healthy lifestyle. He is currently publishing several books on health, fitness, laser therapy, business success, and self treatment programs from his website.

Visit Dr. Perry today to get your unique Core 4 System Evaluation to determine why you are hurting, even after others have tried helping. Hundreds have taken advantage of the Stop Chasing Pain program.

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Lisa's third book has just been released. It's titled "Relentless - How A Mother And Daughter Defied The Odds"

Visit: https://relentlessbook.lisatam... for more Information


When extreme endurance athlete, Lisa Tamati, was confronted with the hardest challenge of her life, she fought with everything she had. Her beloved mother, Isobel, had suffered a huge aneurysm and stroke and was left with massive brain damage; she was like a baby in a woman's body. The prognosis was dire. There was very little hope that she would ever have any quality of life again. But Lisa is a fighter and stubborn.

She absolutely refused to accept the words of the medical fraternity and instead decided that she was going to get her mother back or die trying.

This book tells of the horrors, despair, hope, love, and incredible experiences and insights of that journey. It shares the difficulties of going against a medical system that has major problems and limitations. Amongst the darkest times were moments of great laughter and joy.

Relentless will not only take the reader on a journey from despair to hope and joy, but it also provides information on the treatments used, expert advice and key principles to overcoming obstacles and winning in all of life's challenges. It will inspire and guide anyone who wants to achieve their goals in life, overcome massive obstacles or limiting beliefs. It's for those who are facing terrible odds, for those who can't see light at the end of the tunnel. It's about courage, self-belief, and mental toughness. And it's also about vulnerability... it's real, raw, and genuine.

This is not just a story about the love and dedication between a mother and a daughter. It is about beating the odds, never giving up hope, doing whatever it takes, and what it means to go 'all in'. Isobel's miraculous recovery is a true tale of what can be accomplished when love is the motivating factor and when being relentless is the only option.

We are happy to announce that Pushing The Limits rated as one of the top 200 podcast shows globally for Health and fitness. 

**If you like this week's podcast, we would love you to give us a rating and review if you could. That really, really helps to show get more exposure on iTunes**

Transcript of the Podcast

Speaker 1: (00:01)
Welcome to pushing the limits. The show that helps you reach your full potential with your host. Lisa tamati brought to you by Lisatamati.com.

Speaker 2: (00:13)
Lisa Tamati here today. I have dr. Piri Nicolston to guest who is a really well known master fitness trainer who lives in the U S he started off as a chiropractic physician, but has morphed into many other areas, including functional movements, assessments he's yeah, functional movement specialist. He does deep tissue laser therapy and he's the expert on pain. But today we go into a deep dive into the lymphatic system area that is really not well covered in the literature. Not much is taught about it in medical schools, and this is something that's really, really important for us to understand. And that's why I have dr. Perry on the show today really was an honor to have him on before we go over to dr. Perry. However, just wanted to remind you every couple of weeks at the moment we are holding an epigenetics health program, live webinar, which you can join.

Speaker 2: (01:11)
The next one, this is coming out the end of June. So the next one we actually holding tomorrow but every two weeks or so. So if you want to join us for our next webinar, now, this is all about your genes assessing your genes and working to optimize your genes specifically for you. So looking at your nutrition, your exercise but more importantly, everything around your neurotransmitters, your hormones, your personality, right through to your career, the way that your mind works. This is a really amazing holistic program that we'll see you right for life. This is not something that you just do for a couple of weeks and then move on. This is something that would really help you understand your genes. So if you want to come and check that out, please head on over to epigenetics.lisatamati.com and register for the next live webinar, and you can find out all about it.

Speaker 2: (02:10)
And I just wanted to remind you to, to check out my latest book, relentless, how a mother and daughter defied the odds, which is now available on all the stores throughout New Zealand. Also online, worldwide through Amazon in Ingram and audio books, Kindle everywhere that good books are sold, that that is titled relentless. And that's the story of bringing my mum back after a massive aneurysm, left her with hardly any brain function left at the age of 74 and this against the old story. And this is really the reason why I do what I do. Everything that I learned on that journey and the podcast certainly reflects some of the learnings that I've had on this journey and people like dr. Perry who's coming on today. And many of the people in the past have been a part of that rehabilitation journey and continue to be and it's really sent me down a deep learning path so that we learn to, or start to take control of our own health and no longer give up our health in our control to any one doctor or any one person, but start to take control for ourselves, start to understanding our body, educate ourselves around how our body and our mind works and then optimizing it.

Speaker 2: (03:25)
And there is just so much fabulous information that I love sharing through this podcast right before we hit over. Thanks once again for tuning into the show. And I really, really appreciate it. If you enjoy the show, please do share it with your friends, with your family. If you think this episode will help someone just, you know, copy the link and share it on, share it on social media. I'd love you to take a photo of you watching it or share it with the hashtag pushing the limits and hashtag Lisa Tamati, that would be really appreciated. And of course, a rating and review for the show would be fantastic. We have cracked the top 200 shows globally, and there are millions of podcasts. So we correct the top 200 shows globally in health and fitness seeker. So thank you so much that everybody who has put in a writing in a review or shared it with one of their friends right now over to Dr. Perry, Nicholson.

Speaker 2: (04:25)
Well, hi everyone. And welcome back to the shows, pushing the limits here with Lisa Tammany. And today I have a very special guest, someone who I've been following for a, quite a long time now, and I'm really, really excited for him because he's going to share with you some mind blowing stuff today. So dr. Perry Nicholson, who's sitting in New Jersey and the USA is with us today. So thank you, dr. Perry for taking the time. I'm really excited to have you on. So dr. Perry, would you let's start a little bit about your background because you have a really interesting back story. If I may say you started off in chiropractic, but we're doing ended up give us a little bit of a background.

Speaker 3: (05:04)
Yeah. It's been a heck of a journey by the way, honestly. Right. but first of all, thank you very much for having me on your show. It's really a privilege to be here. Very excited. Yeah. It's just been a journey of exploration and discovery and changing where I'm going, honestly, based on lots of pain and suffering and unfortunately in my own life, of course, but also other people that I've come across and you know, most of our lessons in life actually come from that, right. Because otherwise, why do you want to change? If you feel comfortable, there's no reason to do something usually broadsides you. Right. And you get something that you didn't expect. So I became a chiropractor, roughly it's his back in 1997. Now I can't even calculate the amount of years in my head anymore.

Speaker 3: (05:57)
And it was great, you know, I mean, I, I became one because I hurt myself bodybuilding and battle no back injury. And of course, when you think, well back, you think Cairo, right? Yep. That's unfortunately kind of what I got pigeonholed into is just treating musculoskeletal pain and it was never really, truly what I thought it was going to be. It's a great profession, of course, but it just didn't truly resonate with my heart at the time. And I was very close to actually leaving that profession at one point. But I didn't. And then I came across other avenues, other ways of looking at the body and I got turned on to the movement stuff, which I do a lot of now. And then a lot of the soft tissue things and fascia, and then the brain and pain science and neuroscience.

Speaker 3: (06:47)
And then of course the big thing I'm into now through the lymphatic system by journey really changed a lot to what I'm focusing on. Now, when I got an auto immune disease about five going on five years ago now, and that just changed the course of my life because things that were supposed to help me were not helping me or the thought processes of medicine were making me worse. And what I thought I knew to help myself wasn't working. And it forced me to really step back and have a different relationship with my own body, but also trying to understand why the, why does the body actually do what it's doing? I mean, there's gotta be some reason. It just, doesn't all of a sudden flip a switch and decide to make your life miserable. It never happened. Nothing happens like, like that, except trauma, but, you know, it builds up over time and it just was something that I don't know. I I look back on it. It was really, really rough, but I'm also truly grateful, honestly, that I wouldn't have been able to discover what, what I'm doing now and the kind of person I am now. Honestly, if I didn't go through that hardship. And I find that when I speak to other people who've been through summer things, they almost always say the same things. It really sucked when I was going through it. But I don't think I would've taken it back.

Speaker 2: (08:16)
And this is one part of your story that really resonated with me because, you know, I've had a couple of journeys myself and without going through, when you go through something horrible like that, it does make you think, hang on a minute, the normal stuff isn't working. Okay. I can either give up and, you know, crawl away into my space and be miserable for the rest of my life or sick or whatever. Or I can go hang on. What else is out there? And let's tear open some doors and you are highly motivated when you're in this state. So you start to look. And when you, when you talk to, you know, I've talked to a lot of doctors and people who have had their own journey, whether it's with a loved one or themselves, when they've gone, hang on a minute, this isn't working, this isn't working. The stuff that I think is meant to me working, isn't working for me. And that's when they suddenly go, hang on, light bulbs, start going off and they start to explore. So, you know, when you get an auto immune disease, it's, it feels almost like a betrayal of your own body. And it doesn't, it's like, you know, why are you attacking your own body? What was the immune auto immune disease that you were with with, and how to fit in, make you sick? You know, change your direction. Exactly.

Speaker 3: (09:29)
Great question. Well, for mine that didn't even have a name

Speaker 2: (09:32)
For [inaudible]. Yeah.

Speaker 3: (09:36)
We, because that can be even more dangerous because you lets you have a name. Yeah. You become the label. And a lot of times you begin to manifest exactly what that diagnosis says. You say I've had tons of people get way worse when they've gotten a quote unquote answer for what it is. Because just because I give you a diagnosis, doesn't tell me anything about how you got it. Yeah. And that's what people really need to understand because many people can have the same diagnosis, but you didn't arrive at it the same way. Yeah. That is really critical for people to understand. You may have ended up at the same destination with the,

Speaker 2: (10:16)
But you took completely different pathways.

Speaker 3: (10:18)
That's the uniqueness and individuality of body. The auto immune disease means that, you know the body just all of a sudden starts to attack itself and they don't know why auto immune disease is just, I have, we don't know what it is and the hard part and why it's so difficult to treat is it's never just one thing then auto immune disease. And that's why, where medicine can get really lost and is struggling because they're really, really good at if you can identify, what, what is this causing the problem? They can go after it, like, like a bacteria or an infection or trauma,

Speaker 2: (11:04)
If a then B it's very linear. Yeah.

Speaker 3: (11:10)
When you're, yeah. When you're dealing with a complex system, which is the human body, it's here's tip, it's never, ever

Speaker 2: (11:19)
Linear. Yeah. Never

Speaker 3: (11:22)
All over the damn place. I mean, there's so many moving quote, unquote, parts that it mind boggles you of the possibilities. And one of the things that I say all the time is that nothing is more terrifying than the idea of unlimited possibilities, but that's what it is like when somebody comes in to see you. And that's why you have to become a detective in a way and really deal now with the diagnosis. But with the person in front of you has the diagnosis. You have backtrack their pathway towards getting there. But unfortunately in the world of medicine, when you get diagnosed with something, you'd get the quote unquote, this, right? Here's your protocol that you have day now that you have this, and then this is what you should expect. And so they already put the outcome in your mind or expectations are the worst that they'll pigeonhole you and tell you, you won't be able to get better or get to a certain point. And there's nothing we can do about it. And I'm like, that's BS completely disagree with you. Totally. You can tell me that, but it's just going to go right out the other ear and I'm going to do my own thing. Yeah. That's what I did

Speaker 2: (12:38)
As we asked such complex creatures. And like you say, we come to this conclusion of this problem that we've got through a myriad of things. And this is when you, when you have the normal approach. So it makes sense because it's linear because it's reductionist because it's like, you know, a plus B equals C a and we can follow that through. And when you start checking in other aspects, you know as a, as a health coach myself, I just even find it. You know, I feel like I'm a detective, you know, I'm on the, I'm on the trail. What is it? That's actually, you know, what are the, it's always a multipronged approach that I end up with. You know, it's never a one pill solution, which unfortunately, most people want, they want the magic pill to come and rescue them. They want the Knight in shining armor to come along and go, here you go. And you find now, and unfortunately that's not how the body works. Is it?

Speaker 3: (13:35)
Yeah. Not with, not with chronic disease and auto immune disease. It might work that if you're lucky in the beginning with acute care and traumatic care, I mean, there's no system of medicine. That's better than modern medicine of acute care trauma care. I can tell you, you're not going to come to see me for lymph work. If you've got your arm hanging off on first, but then you better see me afterwards. I know. But once they put that sucker on, you're going to have some problems later. Cause they're gonna say, no, I'm not. You're, you're good, but not so much. That's one of the reasons why we're really struggling these days where the increase in autoimmune and chronic disease and people are not getting better because we're still trying to go after things. And the old school style of medicine, where we treat something like an infectious disease, find the cause, then give you something for it.

Speaker 3: (14:33)
And then you don't have to worry about it anymore. But with this one it's a completely different and you can have a mixture of things and something that could be the catalyst that was decades prior that set something in motion for what you're experiencing now. But medicine, unfortunately today will look as clinically irrelevant, but it's actually highly relevant. I'll even know that because the body is so great at compensating and adapting to stressors. You might not know you have an underlying issue for many, many years because the body is so good at trying to protect you and cover it up and say, listen, I got this for you. You're not, I know you're not gonna feel this right now. Cause I'm just doing my best to protect you. But all those compensations mechanisms eventually can break. And with chronic stress because they finding that the number one cause of chronic diseases, incessant stress, never-ending stress that happens all the time and it just breaks your body systems down.

Speaker 3: (15:44)
And here's the thing that's been the biggest. What's the word I'm looking for? It just all made sense to me. When I began to look at it this way, I was working as a chiropractor and helping people in pain, but I was still really only looking at one possible system of the body, having a problem, the nervous system and the musculoskeletal system and the joints and the fasen and the muscles and the tendons and ligaments. And that's great. But as only one part of the whole system, you've got a lot of other ones that I was thinking, well, I don't need to know about these cause I'm a chiropractor. What do I need to know about the digestive system beyond? Okay. Pass my boards and I know what it does, but how that might relate to your back pain, for instance, not to mention your, your vascular system and your lymphatic system and your hormone system, all those things matter.

Speaker 3: (16:54)
And that's what a complex system is. It just mixes all these different things together and how they relate to each other. So I, my term now, as I tell people, I don't even, I think more like an engineer then I then a doctor because an engineer has to look at how systems work together. Not just parts it's printed, but in medicine breaks thing, Zen parts to try to understand things. It's very Newtonian where I'm going to take something here and I'm going to break it down to really, really small parts to help me understand it. And it will, but it doesn't tell you anything about how it works together with another part, because if I have an a and a B, and I break a and B down to their smallest components, it doesn't tell me how a and B when I stick them together, how they're going to work right then. Yeah. The synergy there.

Speaker 2: (17:51)

Speaker 3: (17:51)
Yeah. Because a and B are always going to change how they work together based on the environment that a and B is in. Yeah. Well, I got news for you. You're always in a new environment all the time, so it's never the same. It's never the same. When you understand that concept, it's a huge eye opener. And then you'll usually find your answer for your problem. In another system that you haven't been looking at, not the quote unquote painful system. And that's what stopped chasing pain means. We certainly treat people in pain, of course, but I don't want you to chase it. That just means it's treating the side of pain and doing the same old thing,

Speaker 2: (18:32)
DMS and yeah. Not getting to that. Yeah.

Speaker 3: (18:34)
I want you to look somewhere else and I really want you to think now I don't even think I, those are the way I think you don't come to see me for the therapy that I'm going to do yet. You come to see me for the way. I think, because the way I think is going to determine how I'm going to do the therapies to you. And that's really important word I chose there. I didn't say what therapies I said, how I'm gonna do the therapies because a lot of people use the same therapies with different results because it's not what you're using is how you're using it. It's how you're mixing them together. And when you're mixing them together and where you're doing it,

Speaker 2: (19:22)
Because that's what I've been making cake, you do it in the wrong order. You're not going to get a nice cake at the end.

Speaker 3: (19:28)
That is really important for people to understand. And a big thing for me, where I was just like, that makes complete sense where it's not necessarily what you're doing. I mean, that's important, but if you can just shift some things around and I began to experiment with myself first, but then also with clients, because I'm trying to get them better. I'm trying to go outside of the proverbial box. And I said, okay, well, I've got these therapies. Let me see if I can switch them around a little bit and do, instead of doing a before B, let me do D before a and see what we get, right. Or here's a novel idea. How about I do it to a completely different part of your body that might be something kind of cool to see, and then the results began to get better.

Speaker 2: (20:16)
Wow. And then you started to develop your own systems cause so you have a website at a, in a brain called stop chasing pain. If anyone wants to go and check out dr. Perry's work on there. And you, you work a lot, a lot of the work that I've been looking at lately that you're doing is in the lymphatic system, which is, you know, to be honest, I've not actually looked at that system prior to, to coming across you I've I've know a little bit about, Oh, you should go and get a lymph massage. Didn't really understand still, you know, learning how that sort of massively influences us. So can we go a little bit into now, your lymphatic your, your, what do you call it? The body aquarium. I love this. I think that's a great analogy. And tell us a little bit about the lump system. And then, you know, we can get into some of the others so that, because I think this is a really important piece of the puzzle. And it's a, it's a system we don't even really think about, you know? Very often I don't think,

Speaker 3: (21:21)
No, not at all. Great question. Yeah. I'd be happy to, I could talk about this for days. I go, I'll just keep going and don't feel too bad because this people in medicine have no idea what it is. It's just, it's just a long forgotten or overlooked system that we didn't think was really, really important unless you had cancer. That's the only time you really hear about limp is you got cancer and you gotta be careful cause cancer can spread through the lymphatic system. And that's true, but it's also designed to kill cancer. That's part of his shot, but that in and of itself should tell you something. If it is spread through your whole body, by a system

Speaker 2: (22:00)
It's probably a little important. He is a little bit, and it tells you that

Speaker 3: (22:05)
It goes everywhere, right? Or the only other time you hear about it is if you have a body part that's 25 times bigger than its support.

Speaker 2: (22:14)
Yeah. It's really swollen. And you're like, yeah,

Speaker 3: (22:17)
Who put the elephant leg on me? Right. And then that, cause it can't drain the inflammation. And I always say it's the most important and neglected system in the body that we're not looking at for healing from chronic pain, autoimmune, and performance. And I've gotta be honest with you. I didn't look at it either. And the only reason I didn't look at it is because I wasn't suffering enough to make myself look at it. Like I was saying anything and everything to try to get better with my auto immune disease. And I was damn near died, got very close to it. And I only discovered the lab through that journey. Cause otherwise I think I may be a, spent like 15 minutes on it in school and I just went on. Cause let me tell you the good stuff. Let's talk about the nerves, right?

Speaker 3: (23:07)
And then we didn't cover the lymphatics. But that system is crucial because it's the system that is designed to remove toxins and bacteria and bad stuff from your body. It's part, it's a central part of your immune system. And your immune system is designed to kill stuff. You get things out that are not supposed to be there. They can make your life miserable or make you sick. And that's bacteria, viruses, fungus, parasites cancer, also your own metabolic cellular waste. So just from your body breaking down every day, I mean, you lose billions. That's with a B billions of cells every day. And when they die, that's gotta get out. I mean, all that, stuff's got to leave you. And when cells work, they create waste. Like you do the waste out. Imagine if all of that stuff, which is coming at you all the time could not get out.

Speaker 3: (24:13)
And it stayed inside of you. Yeah. Well you're not gonna feel too good. I love long actually, but it doesn't happen. That doesn't happen like fast. So you don't notice it. It's it's slow. And that's where you begin to get. I'm tired all the time. I'm fatigued all the time. I've got brain fog all the time. I got this symptom. I got that symptom. I got this. Now I got that now. And you've got all these slow breakdowns and then we just look at it as a part of life or the complete moronic. One of you're just getting older. They hate, I hate that one. I, there's not a reason. It's not supposed to break down like that. Then that's supposed to feel bad just because it's common. Doesn't mean it's normal. Exactly, exactly. And I know when I was sick, not a single person mentioned limp to me, not a single one.

Speaker 3: (25:12)
I had to find it through my own work. And I was always searching all my years of trying to figure out one why people would always have things that would continue to come back. Even despite all the great treatments with Panhell and I'm like, why are they not helping for a long what's the deal? And this one, when I got sick, forced me to find that answer. And for me, it comes down to this is that you're only going to heal as well as it. You can detoxify your body because in order to heal, you got to get bad stuff out. And that's what healing is. Healing is where you're going to get sick. Right? You get injury, you get trial and you get damaged. That stuff has to leave. Yup. And then your, your body has to be able now to make new cells, new stuff. Yeah. You free stuff. Here's one guy I learned from his name is Dr. Jerry Tennant. And I recently had him on my podcast that stop chasing pain podcast. And he said, this phrase that stuck with me and I always say it twice. A chronic disease occurs when you lose the ability to make new cells that work well, chronic disease occurs when you lose the ability to make new cells that work, which makes sense. Right? Cause if I can make new cells that work, wouldn't be sick. Cause we were replacing

Speaker 2: (26:44)
Billions of cells all the time, like you said, but when we lose that ability and we start losing tissue, we start getting poor photocopies. If you like of each of the cells, that's when we start to have aging, that's when we started to die. That's when we start to have,

Speaker 3: (27:01)
Then it's just then, okay, well here's the next logical question? What do you need to make new cells?

Speaker 2: (27:08)
Right? Yeah. The first thing

Speaker 3: (27:10)
You need is you need an environment that is conducive to anything wanting to grow at all. Yep. So the environment is the key. That's called epigenetics. Your environment determines your course of your entire genetics. So genetics loads up the gun, your environment pulls the trigger. That's the analogy that they have. And then I'm like, okay, well that makes complete sense. Then I said, well, what system in your body is the big controller of the environment that all of your cells are living in, which is a mostly fluid environment. You're 80% water. So that's a lot of liquid.

Speaker 3: (27:55)
There you go. Right. I never thought of that. That's why I came up with, well, if I have that one system is Spencer control all where the cells live. I should make sure that guy works well. And that's why I came up with the body aquarium analogy because that people understood why when you have a fish tank and aquarium, it's a lot of liquid in there. Right? And you've got living things on there called fish. Well for you, it's your cells. You got all different structures in there from your coral to your rock, to your castles and all that. And you know that if you've got really beautiful water and it's perfect in there, everything thrives. Well, that's brilliant idea. But you also know what happens when the water starts to decay. When it doesn't filter. Well, it gets stagnant. It doesn't have a lot of movement to it.

Speaker 2: (28:56)
No, not for the fish.

Speaker 3: (28:58)
Fish poop, all your cell poop. I say it Avalon. Well, it stays in there. And then you start to have water that gets what very green, very murky you get by. You get film like this goopy film everywhere. And you that's called biofilm. That's bacteria sets in and the viruses and the bacteria release of protective biofilm coating on them. Wow. And then, so it's just everything in the tank eventually dies. Wow. Right. Okay. So then I'm thinking to myself, well, you might want to make sure that filtration system works really, really well. And if you do, then what happens is if replaced all that water and you put new fish in, if you didn't change the filter, they're all going to die again. Right. But if you do change the filter, they might die. I mean, that happens. But their chances of thriving dramatically

Speaker 2: (29:59)
Garment is beautiful place with you. Wow. That makes sense.

Speaker 3: (30:06)
So I forgot all these therapies that I'm doing and I can feel good for a little while, but I'm like anybody else,

Speaker 2: (30:16)
But he changed the filters. And so you're stagnating,

Speaker 3: (30:22)
It's, that's a key word stagnation because life is about movement. Fluid is about movement. And you know, if it stagnates, that's why they use that term and Eastern medicine a lot. It's called stagnation of your energy stagnation of your cheek in Western medicine. What that means is that your fluids are just sluggish. They're not moving. Yeah. And then when that happens from a Western medicine physiological perspective, that means you don't get nutrient delivery to cells. You don't get oxygen delivery to cells and you don't get toxins out. And that means you don't have what you need to make a new cell that works. So hello, here comes chronic disease. Right.

Speaker 2: (31:09)
That makes so much sense.

Speaker 3: (31:11)
It does. When you think about it, from that perspective of all those systems. So one of the phrases I always say is that no system in your body ever works alone. It never ever heals alone. And it never gets injured alone, no way. But the way we treat people is the exact opposite. We're all about specialization of systems. So if you go to the doctor and you've got back, I got a problem with my prostate. Well, you got to go see the urologist. I got a problem with my gut. Well, you got to go see the gastroenterologist and the urologist and the gastroenterologists. Don't talk,

Speaker 2: (31:52)
Talk to different parts. Yeah.

Speaker 3: (31:55)
You know, myself, you know, your body doesn't know what a prostate is and it doesn't know what I just sold on one system. This is dude, I'm just one thing. Why are you doing, why are you breaking that up? And you realize that they intimately connect with each other. And that's why we get lost.

Speaker 2: (32:14)
And is that the, is that come about because you know, the way that medicine has evolved and it's become so intricate and so detailed that no one person can be across all systems. Obviously you cannot be an absolute expert in cardiology and urology at the same time. And there's this way of connecting the dots. People meet to come in. Someone who likes like you, who works in different system has an understanding of the broader system so that they can,

Speaker 3: (32:47)
In order to be a specialist, you'd better be a really damn good generalist first. Yeah. Yeah. Like you need to understand how the whole system works and then you can start to go down a specialized branch dude. If you're operating on my heart, I want somebody who knows the art inside and out. I also want them to understand how that heart relates to all the other systems, because maybe they can have a grasp of why the hell my art went in the first place or because they can fix that. But if you don't get to all the other systems that have related to that, or you have that generalist who was able to now bridge the specialists together so that they, I just want them to start to communicate with each other, talk with each other. And I read a great quote once that specialization is great, but it was a specialist as somebody who knows more knows more

Speaker 2: (33:39)
And more about less and less yes than this. I think he's okay.

Speaker 3: (33:44)
I want to go into something like that, but I was able to get much further and my ability to help heal myself. But also when I began working with a lot of really seriously chronically ill people with auto immune diseases when I came from that generalist state.

Speaker 2: (34:07)
Yes, I love it. Yeah.

Speaker 3: (34:10)
Yeah. And I never would gotten to that if I, if I didn't get sick on my own. Cause I really wasn't seeing in my practice, I was seeing a lot of chronic musculoskeletal pain, but I really wasn't seeing a lot of auto immune type cases, but the universe really has a way of pulling you or taking you in a direction where you're supposed to be going. And then all of a sudden, now that I had it, then everybody else started to try to, they were finding me that way. Yeah. And you know, and then also I realized that many of the chronic musculoskeletal things that I was going after were not musculoskeletal problems at all. They were, they were lymphatic system problems or digestive system problems and immune system problems just showing their vulnerability in the musculoskeletal system. So then I'm like, ah, well, this makes sense because how many different ways can I treat a lower back with ultrasound and muscle STEM?

Speaker 3: (35:18)
And he, and I said, move and exercises and it still hurts. And then I'm like, well, how about I flip you over and let me press in your abdominal region a little bit, which is where most of your lymphatic system resides is in your ad and see if it there. Wow. And I'm going to say probably not, I'm not going to say always because it is nothing is all, but it was like 99.999, nine, 9% of the time when I do that, you are not going to be happy when I press on that, I know it's going to hurt. I know it's going to hurt, but nobody ever knew that the abdomen hurt because nobody pressed on it.

Speaker 2: (36:03)
Yup. And we didn't know that.

Speaker 3: (36:07)
Yeah. Everybody's going after the back. And then my point is your abdomen is not supposed to hurt when I press on, you know, it's just that it's been vulnerable. It had inflammation, it had problems there, but we always go after where

Speaker 2: (36:24)
Hertz. Yeah. I mean, we've even found that like, you know, like just the people I've been working with, you know, when I give you an example yeah. A young man saw back a year, she's got some mechanical troubles. When you look at the x-ray, he's got some discs bulging. But I've had success with him, more on working with his gut health getting him to do more, stretching, more movement, getting them to actually get some aerobic exercise. So there's some, actually some movements in the body changing his diet, putting him on a few different supplements. In other words, you're, you're, you're taking the, the information in the body. You're looking at those other systems now for me, what's exciting is to now start to discover the lymphatic system because then there'll be, it'll be another thing that you can add into the mix to be able to have.

Speaker 2: (37:20)
It's not always just the back. It's not always in a mechanical issue when it appears to be just a mechanical issue. Like a, a sore knee is not always a score knee. And that's a leap for people, you know, they think, no, no, I hit my back. I fell over and therefore I have those some differ, I need either surgery or I need, you know, a chiropractic adjustment or a needs X, Y, Z. And then they do that and it doesn't work. And then you start looking at, well, why is it not working? You know, it's meant to be.

Speaker 3: (37:50)
Yeah. And what you need to understand what that's a great, I'm so glad you brought that up is because what you'll find is this is just because I say you had you were bending over to pick something up and quote unquote, your background that can not necessarily be the cause of the back pain. But what happened is, is that that injury was the catalyst that actually set something off in another system that has been lying dormant for a long period of time. It just manifested itself in the back at that point. So you'll say, okay, well it's, it's this because I did that. Right. So we always want to ask them basic fundamental clinical question is what happened before? What happened? This is what you want to say, but it doesn't mean that that's the true cause either because no. Then when we look now at diagnostic testing, there is no correlation in pain science with the amount of damage seen on a diagnostic test and your level of pain.

Speaker 3: (38:54)
Well, because I can see somebody who has a need, that's a disaster on an X, right? They've got no cartloads left. And they're like, Oh, thanks for telling me, I got no pain. Can we go running now? Zero? And then I got somebody who, I can't see anything on the x-ray can't move. Yeah. And you can't link because it looks like this, that it's that, but it's a slippery slope because when somebody sees something like that, then automatically, they're like, that's gotta be why it hurts. And you get, you get stuck in there and your brain of I've got a disc, I've got a herniated disc in my lower back, which you can have of course. But it doesn't mean that that's where the pain is coming from. It certainly can cause I've been there. Right. But what I'm saying is, is that how about you can go after that, but you want to go after the other things too was begs the question, well, how do you know what you need to go after as well?

Speaker 3: (39:57)
Well, that comes from being the detective and being the engineer by asking really, really great questions and your history. And another one is assessing and pressing on and pushing on many other areas besides your low back. And the gut one is a prime example because if you have such inflammation in your abdominal region and a problem with your gut, sometimes known as leaky gut, for instance, that's where the majority are lymphatics sit. And then you're on fire swell up when stuff leaks through the gut, or you got inflammation. Cause the lymphatics are designed to reduce, eliminate them for me and they get overloaded. Then you build up pressure in your lower back. And then you restrict motion in the organs around your abdomen, which influences how the muscles move and the support the spine while that makes so much sense. So I can put you through your corrective exercises and your movements and mobilize your back.

Speaker 3: (40:59)
I certainly would do absolutely as well, riff with the other stuff with the abdominal work, moving your organs around a little bit, moving your lymphatic system a little bit. And then once you do that, then it's like, you know what sounds a little bit crazy, man, but I feel way better when you do that today in conjunction with the other stuff, because I I'm working multiple systems together that way. And that was the big thing for me because the lymphatic system and the Oregon system of the body are the, that the abdominal organs, primarily nobody really pays attention to until you're like really, really sick or double over in pain. So they seem unimportant or unrelated to your back and they're not, and there's always some downstream problem. And your lower back is just the end point. Right? So I, I have the system that I teach that I put together after looking at all the systems of the body and I call it the body ecosystem hierarchy and an ecosystem is taken from the nature ecosystem for a reason, because everything out there outside your door works together all the time, nothing is independent and a hierarchy means this everything's important in the hierarchy.

Speaker 3: (42:32)
Some are just more important than others, right? And then, so when I look at the body, I look at all the different systems and I know there's, there's a, this is how I look at the body. There's a priority system of your systems to your body, which means that your brain thinks some are more important than other ones. And you said, well, okay doc, well, how the hell did you determine what's more important? It's like, I'm not determining at all your brain is. And I, I put it this way. I know from studying pain science, the number one thing your brain doesn't want to do is be dead. Like I just want you to survive and not die. If we can accomplish that thumbs up for everything else. I'm good to go. So my hierarchy is built on this. The more there's a problem with one of those systems, the faster you die.

Speaker 3: (43:26)
So then the brain will prioritize a system that will kill you faster when something goes wrong with it. Well, okay. Right. Because otherwise you'd be dead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the bottom of the very bottom of my hierarchy, there's nine there's nine systems. Nine is the side of pain, wherever you point. That's the least important part for me. Like doc, it hurts on my elbow. Okay. That's good. Okay. Let's start there. But it's the least important thing, but I'm going to start there. And then up from number eight, right side of pain is where you point number eight is the musculoskeletal system, muscle facet, joint ligament, but they're all important, but that's usually what we always go after this. It must have fastened, right? Robin, you know, yanked it, pull it, twisted, whatever, rub, all these sorts of things. And that's good, but it's all the way down here. Yep. And number one on the system obviously is the brain. Because if you lose that your toes on anybody,

Speaker 2: (44:38)
Right. Absolutely.

Speaker 3: (44:40)
The story is every, all the other systems are

Speaker 2: (44:44)
Gone. Absolutely.

Speaker 3: (44:45)
Number one is the brain. And then the number one thing that affects the brain is stress. So there's the stress factor. But number two in my system is lymphatic system.

Speaker 2: (44:58)
Wow. Number two. Is that important?

Speaker 3: (45:01)
Yes. Because remember all the other things sit inside the tank. Yup. So too.

Speaker 2: (45:08)
Yeah. Yeah. And then they now, cause it can actually be number one too, because they now know

Speaker 3: (45:18)
They've known for 200 years, but they're finally

Speaker 2: (45:22)
Letting it out.

Speaker 3: (45:24)
You actually have limps in your brain

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