The Power Of Plasmalogens In Restoring Health With Dr. Dayan Goodenowe

Lisa: Well, hi everybody and welcome into Pushing the Limits. Today I have Dr. Dayan Goodenowe and I'm just jumping out of my skin with excitement for this conversation already. I've already learned so much. Thank you, Dr. Goodenowe, for already sharing so many pearls. I thought we better get recording. Welcome back to Pushing the Limits, Dr. Goodenowe. It's wonderful to have you.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Happy to be back. Wonderful to talk to you, Lisa. Looking forward to it.

Lisa: And we've got so much to catch up on because you've been a busy bee in the last few years since we caught up last time and had our initial conversation, and I'll link to that in the show notes. But Dr. Goodenowe, can you just give us a brief backstory and then bring us, in a nutshell, to where we are today so we can take the conversation forward from there?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: For sure. Well, the interesting thing from my perspective is my background is in science, right? My PhD is actually in medicine, psychiatric medicine, looking at the biochemical mechanisms of psychiatric disease. So I come at this not from an MD practitioner's perspective but from a science perspective, and this is where I began.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: A lot of people that get into this functional medicine and advanced space, they all have something that happens in their life that really kind of changes them and says, "You know what? I've had a wake-up call." And they come from this medical perspective, where the medical profession is taught to diagnose. It's taught to focus on disease, because you're going in as a sick person. Something's wrong with a person. Healthy people don't go see the doctor, for example. So you're going to a doctor to find out what's wrong with you. And they are fundamentally there to find disease. And you do find what you're looking for. So they're not trained to find health. They're trained to find disease.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And so all of our technologies that have been developed, our blood tests, our diagnostic procedures, they're all designed to look for disease. Find a disease, diagnose a disease, characterise and log people in. They're never taught, they're not really taught about health. They're not taught about core nutrition. They're not taught about the core biochemical operations of the body.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And so I come at it from a different direction. My background is doing clinical trials, large-scale clinical trials, like 50,000 people with colon cancer, and on and on and on. The cancer space, the dementia space, and so on. And then from the pharmaceutical industry perspective, my background is in biotech, in manufacturing or discovering, patenting products, on the technology side. So I'm really a bricks-and-mortar guy, not just a practitioner perspective.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: What I realised over the years, and this really kind of was a wake-up call roughly back in 2016, is enough already. I can't keep patenting these diagnostic tests for autism, for Alzheimer's, for Parkinson's, for colon cancer, pancreatic cancer, ovarian cancer, and developing these laboratory technologies that we can screen for these diseases, but they don't get implemented. And this is what was very frustrating, is that there's actually a lot of really good science out there. We just don't use it. And there's this big divide between the scientist side and the clinical trial side.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: There's a lot of things that are done well in that regard. We know how to actually validate. We know how to test a hypothesis. That's been going on for hundreds of years. That science side is there. And so we run these clinical trials and we identify, "Oh, here's a useful solution." But then there's this huge gap when it comes to getting it implemented.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And this is where my frustration, my wake-up call really was: enough already. I've got to roll my sleeves up. I've got to get in with the people here. I can't be sitting in some glass tower watching people live and die and just track their life and death from a scientific perspective. I've got to really get in the trenches with the practitioners. And the practitioners need to have access to research-level technology. Research-level technology not only on the actual instrumentation side, like the ion cyclotron mass spectrometry side, the advanced research-grade MRI technologies, but also advanced technologies in the manufacturing of certain core nutritional intermediates.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And so I do basically biochemical engineering of the human body. I don't deal with drugs anymore. A lot of the molecules that I invented and patented in the pharmaceutical space are biochemical intermediates. Some of the most advanced drugs in our world, like L-dopa for Parkinson's, for example — that's a metabolite. That's actually a human metabolite. It's not a drug. It's actually in your body all the time. You don't need to take a drug. You need L-dopa to restore dopamine levels, but that's a precursor to dopamine. So L-dopa is basically biochemical engineering for Parkinson's to restore dopamine levels in the substantia nigra and related pathways.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So my job is to take that approach and to educate and to be able to bridge that gap between the practitioners who are diagnosing. The really good ones, it's a bit of an art form really. There are really good practitioners out there, doctors, functional medicine people, where the holistic approach of a human being is understood. But it's really shocking how they never really get taught about health.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And I tell people, if you fight disease, if you're always looking for a disease, the best you can achieve is a zero, because you're trying to remove a negative from the system. And if you're 100% successful in removing all the negatives in your life, biochemically and otherwise, the best you can hope for is a zero. So I say, don't be a zero. You have to add more in. If you want more love in your life, you can't just remove hate to get more love. You actually have to add more love in. If you want more health, you have to add more health in. You have to add in what you're missing.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And then people realise that it's the deviation from health that leads to disease. Disease is not what causes a loss of health. A loss of health is what causes disease. And so the traditional infrastructure, and even our mindset — even when I have new clients that come through our door, they'll often come in with their diagnosis. "I've been diagnosed with this, I've been diagnosed with that." And you have to restart the conversation. You say, "Okay, tell me how you feel. Tell me what's working in your body, what's not working in your body." And let's restore function.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So the restoration of function is disease independent. The brain is supposed to work. There are core systems in the human body that are designed to work, and our job is to restore them to the original manufacturer's specifications. A heart cell is designed to do what a heart cell does. An oligodendrocyte in your brain is designed to myelinate your axons. If you provide it with the material and create the right environment for it to do its job, it will do its job. It wants to do its job. So something is preventing it from doing its job.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So when you start focusing on restoring health, it's a whole different ballgame, because disease is irrelevant. And it also creates more of a unifying approach to things, because once you deviate from health, it just spreads out. Disease is complex. Health is actually quite simple. Well, it's not totally simple, because the human body is quite complex, obviously, but we can break it into really core operating systems. So we talk about membrane, we talk about plasmalogens and the membrane structure — we'll talk about that — but also mitochondrial function, the methyltransferase system of the human body, peroxisomal function, muscle growth and development. These are the core systems that you need to have working. And if you have them working, not only can you restore health and maintain health, but you can achieve higher levels of function.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Obviously the most motivated people in our world are the people who are suffering from something. Someone gets ALS or someone gets multiple sclerosis or dementia — that kind of wakes them up and says, "Oh, I've got a problem." So those are motivated individuals. Then you have this other group of individuals that are just trying to restore health and function and they want to know, how do I maintain health? So we do both of those areas.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: But my job is to really build infrastructure. We actually physically have magnetic resonance imaging, MRIs. We have ion cyclotron advanced laboratory testing. Those technologies have really dramatically improved. And we don't just use them for academic research purposes. We actually use them in real people and get them in the process.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So that's kind of what's really happened over the last few years since our last conversation. The ion cyclotron technology is coming online. This advanced MRI technology, the digitisation of the human brain — we can fully digitise the human brain now in a non-charted way. And then the manufacturing capability of our plasmalogens, our comprehensive nutrition programme. And then we have our centre in Canada, where people physically come and live with us for three to four months with these serious diseases. And we're getting highly reproducible reversals in diseases like ALS and MS. We're just kind of continuing to get better, and we want to disseminate that knowledge to our practitioner network and to everyone that's out there, saying, there are systematic solutions to these situations, and anyone and everyone can take control of their health in this matter. So that's kind of what's been happening.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And software design and our ability to track — that's the other thing too, there's a lot of logistical, infrastructural stuff. We talk about longevity or immortality. You have to actually use the word functional immortality, because sometimes we're cautious with saying, "Oh, we're going to just do longevity research." But really the goal is, how do you maintain functional integrity indefinitely? How can your heart function forever? Can your brain do its function indefinitely? Is there any reason why it can't continue to do the function it was designed to do indefinitely? And if you look at it from that perspective, there really isn't. There really is no barrier, other than our own ignorance in terms of our ability to maintain these operational programmes and to be able to monitor the deviation from health.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And that's where the advanced testing technology comes in, because you need to know when something at the biochemical operational level is not working. People forget — the human body is so robust that we take it for granted. But you're a bioreactor. You eat a hamburger and a milkshake and your body makes your heart muscle and hair and brain cells from that. Your body converts all that stuff and it's an incredibly sophisticated bioreactor. And at some level it's no different than brewing wine and beer. It's a recipe. And so if you want to have sweet tasting wine, you've got to put

the right ingredients into it and you've got to create the right environment for that wine to mature. And at a conceptual level, the human body is the same way.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So that's kind of where my focus has been. We've got a lot of things happening with A4M, and I do more lectures, and the awareness and our client base and our practitioner base is growing quite dramatically. So it's exciting to see these stories, especially in children with autism where we're having extreme success in those areas and so on. So there's a lot going on. But yeah, we can dig into the weeds. We can dig into the weeds wherever you want to go.

Lisa: We're definitely going to dig into the weeds. But this is a fundamental shift in philosophy that we're trying to get across here — it's a deviation from health, that is what disease is. People get tied up with the labelling, right? You've got Lewy body dementia, you've got Alzheimer's dementia, you've got MS, you've got Parkinson's. But you sort of go a level up and go, what is health? What does health look like? And the symptomology for Parkinson's is really isolated to maybe this set of neurons here, but it's actually the biochemical reserve capacity of that person that has gone down. And so you can even predict...

Lisa: So if we swap over and now talk a little bit about the plasmalogens, which are these essential phospholipids that are in the membranes of cells. And these are a crucial part of the arsenal that you have in fighting everything. So we're talking to people that are dealing with autism, Alzheimer's, Lewy body, Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis, myocarditis, post-COVID, long COVID syndromes. All of these things require plasmalogens. And you have made two products — we've made many others, but two key products in the plasmalogens, the Neuro and the Glia, that I want to dive into today. And then also the egg yolk oil that you've developed alongside it.

Lisa: And these are precursors that basically — I come from a firefighting family, right? So my husband's a firefighter, my dad was, my brother is. And you've got to have water for the firefighters to put on the fire, right? And that's what plasmalogens are, basically. They're made to be sacrificed. They're in the membranes of the cell. They're made to be sacrificed to put out whatever fire is going. If you've got no water in the lake because you've just been through a big sickness or illness or for whatever reason, then you're going to have no plasmalogens to put out the future fires. So is that a good way of conceptualising what plasmalogens do?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: That's exactly right. So you think about this water reservoir that you have available to fight fires with, right? And this water reservoir is being fed by a small stream, for example. And over time that small stream fills up this reservoir, which is your reserve capacity. And like you exactly said, you get an acute event like a fire and you go in and you tap into that reserve. And that's fine, as long as you only use up a part of that reserve to fight the fire. And then there's a period of time between this fire and the next fire, and that small stream that's feeding that reservoir gradually builds your reserve capacity back up. And then you're fine, you have enough left over for the next fire. But if the fire goes on too long and too severe and you lose your reserve capacity, then you're stuck with only whatever is trickling in from the stream that's feeding it, right? And that's usually not enough. And so filling up these reserve capacities is critical.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And the plasmalogen story is really exciting because it is a true embodiment of this philosophy. These plasmalogens just didn't come out of — well, actually they did, they came out of thin air. It wasn't a hypothesis. I didn't go out looking for these plasmalogens, right? And I'm a neurochemist, my expertise is in neurobiology, and I didn't even know what these things were in the early 2000s. So where this was discovered was exactly this concept of this deviation from health.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So one of my first patents was this advanced mass spectrometry technology. We use Fourier transform ion cyclotron resonance mass spectrometry. It's a superconducting magnet — we have two 7-Tesla systems here at our facility in Temecula — and it allows us to measure thousands and thousands of molecules simultaneously in human biochemistry. I invented this technology over 20 years ago. That's how long I've been doing this — it's 25 years now since I first started doing this ion cyclotron work.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So when I was applying it to dementia or cognitive decline in a population base, I used this technology to measure the comprehensive biochemistry of people with different degrees of cognitive impairment. And out of the thousands of molecules that were studied, these plasmalogens were discovered to be reproducibly decreased in the blood of individuals with cognitive impairment. And as I researched more, it also predicted which people would become cognitively impaired in the future if they had low levels to begin with. And so this is where this deviation from health mindset really comes into play, because that's exactly what it was. These plasmalogens — Alzheimer's disease doesn't necessarily cause a depletion in plasmalogens. A depletion in plasmalogens causes Alzheimer's. And so that's the deviation from health concept, and the advanced technology allows us to measure that.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Then the next part of the process is, okay, what do we do about it? How do I restore plasmalogens? And I didn't invent plasmalogens. They were discovered back in like 1919. And in the '70s it was really discovered that the peroxisome was critical for making these plasmalogens. And so there are certain diseases in children where they have genetic mutations that affect some peroxisomal enzymes. One of them in particular is called rhizomelic chondrodysplasia punctata, RCDP. These are children that have genetic mutations that prevent them from making plasmalogens. And it's a high mortality disease. It's an autosomal recessive disease, so you need a bad gene copy from both your mom and your dad. But then the child, if they have RCDP, typically doesn't live more than a few years. The average lifespan is like five years. And if they have milder cases, they'll live longer.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So we know for a fact that this plasmalogen system is critical for human life. They have dwarfism, they have skeletal defects, they have brain defects. Ultimately, they typically die of either heart failure or lung failure. And so we've now got really powerfully documented stories where we can restore plasmalogens in these children and they're normal now. Like they're living, they're not going to die. And in one child, little Thatcher, he's now taller than his older brother, for crying out loud. So you can actually restore health. You can bypass genetic defects if you know the biochemistry of the human system.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So they knew this back in the '70s, but there was no real viable way of restoring plasmalogens. In your brain, 20 to 30% of all the phospholipids are plasmalogens, right? That's a lot. Fifty percent in your heart. Your heart, lungs — your body contains a lot of these things. So you're thinking, "Hey, if I'm eating animal products, why am I not getting enough plasmalogens? Can I just go eat heart material, or can I eat muscle material?" And the problem is, what makes these plasmalogens — their superpower — is that they're very powerful antioxidants. And the very last step in the manufacture of them creates this bond called a vinyl ether bond, which is what gives it its power to neutralise peroxides in your body and so on. Problem is that when you eat food that contains plasmalogens, your stomach has concentrated hydrochloric acid in it. So those things get broken apart and you can't absorb them. So you can't actually take a fully intact plasmalogen and get a benefit from it.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So this is where my background in synthetic organic chemistry and the medicinal chemistry approach was: well, how do we design a plasmalogen precursor that can be absorbed and be delivered to your brain, into your heart, into your lungs? And that's where my real contribution was, in my patents in terms of the plasmalogen structure — these plasmalogen precursors.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And you tell these stories and you think there's this linear path, but it's interesting that once you get into it, then you kind of go back and you look at other things, and you realise human breast milk is one of the most powerful sources of these plasmalogen precursors.

Lisa: Yeah, which is why breastfeeding is linked to increased brain development in children and increased myelination and reduced rates of autism and all that kind of stuff, right?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: It's not a cure-all for sure, okay, but it does tell you scientifically that there's a link between the composition of human breast milk — there's virtually no plasmalogens in cow milk, for example. So when children are taking formula versus human breast milk, they're lacking certain core nutrition of their brain. So you think it's all linear, but you kind of go backwards in time and you say, now that I have these plasmalogen precursors, you realise, well, they've actually been present in breast milk, but you can't get enough of them.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So the Prodrome Glia, which is an omega-9 because it has oleic acid designed in it, has the plasmalogen backbone and oleic acid. That's the molecule that's actually in human breast milk. And then Prodrome Neuro is designed for white matter. It's more of a protective molecule. It supports the white matter of the brain, of your heart, your peripheral nervous system — very, very important anti-inflammatory, improves sleep, that type of thing. And then Neuro has a plasmalogen backbone, but it has DHA, a long-chain polyunsaturate. And that's for the neuromuscular junction and the synaptic function of the brain from a neurogenesis perspective.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So I tell people the two plasmalogen molecules are like an old radio. The Glia is the tuning dial. Glia tunes your neurological signals and your health up, but it doesn't create volume. So you can get the radio station tuned on station. And people that are suffering from inflammatory diseases are basically in a noisy static — their body has a noisy, staticky biochemistry. And so if you turn up the volume, it gets worse, right? Like an old radio, if you're kind of off the station and you crank the volume up, all you hear is crackle. And if you keep the volume down low, you can kind of hear the music behind the noise, if you will. And that's what a lot of people suffering from these chronic inflammatory diseases are living in — a really suppressed state. Any additional activity makes their disease worse.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So Neuro is the volume. So people suffering from long COVID, for example, we start with the Glia to resolve the inflammation, restore function and structure, but their body has kind of maladapted to this lower energy state. And so the Neuro is what really brings them out of their long COVID. So the Neuro is the volume. Once you get the radio station tuned in on station, then you can crank the volume up. And so volume before you've done the

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Glia, basically. Correct. You do the Glia first and you do the Neuro second, and the Neuro is really for enhanced neuromuscular performance, cognitive enhancement. It's one of the most advanced advancement molecules.

Lisa: Can I ask, if we list out a few of the common neuro diseases — so someone like my mum who's had an aneurysm, stroke, concussions, cancer of the brain, she's had E. coli, COVID, and she's broken bones and had operations, which is also an insult to the brain, blah, blah, blah. What would be the one to use first? Like Glia would be the one that you use first? That's what I was told by [inaudible], to use the Glia first. My mum's a miracle, and I credit a good portion of that to the plasmalogen use that we've been doing now for years. But I focused more on the Glia than I have on the Neuro for a couple of different reasons. So I knew this picture of the Glia, that you have to get the inflammation down before you turn up the volume. Also, the Neuro is quite expensive, so I was working out how the Glia is a lot more manageable, so to speak, so I can go higher doses than I could with the Neuro from the get-go.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: But you do need both of them, really. With a complicated history like that, you would need both of them in the mix in order to get the volume.

Lisa: She's got a shrunken brain. Her brain has shrunk. When you look at the MRIs, the scans, there's those cracks in the brain that you can sort of see, and the shrinkage in the brain. So that's a loss of volume — that's the choline system?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Well, it's the plasmalogen system. So the two parts, in terms of your mum for example: the Glia is about bringing things back up to baseline, and the Neuro is when you're increasing performance. And you're increasing performance not just in physical athletic performance, but you're actually increasing performance of health — cleaning, cleansing, the reverse transport cholesterol system, all these things happen, the neurovascular system. So in terms of clearing the system and then stimulating the growth of the brain.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Okay, so the size of the brain is determined by two things. One — oh, where is my connection?

Lisa: It's pretty good, I think we're working.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So the first one is, the volume of the brain is determined by the actual cellular content. So you need the cells, you need neurogenesis. And then the plumpness of those cells is what brings up the volume — not from an inflammatory swelling perspective. So Neuro is really what drives the neurogenesis part, and in turn grows the brain. Neuro grows the brain. It does it by a very specific mechanism. It actually stimulates a peptide called secreted APP alpha — amyloid precursor protein, which people worry about because it's got amyloid in it. But sAPP alpha actually is your neurogenesis peptide of the brain.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Anyway, so it does that stuff, and also just clearing out cancer. To get deep into these, cancer is a disease where the mitochondrial production of ATP is impaired. And so what happens is your cells use extra-mitochondrial ATP production. This is where people have the Warburg effect and all these other things with the biochemistry. The biochemistry of cancer has been extensively studied. Basically, it shows that the cells operate in a fed state versus a fasting state, which means it kind of shuts off your peroxisomal function. This is why people with cancer will often have muscle wasting, for example — sarcopenia, that type of thing happens, because that's all built from your peroxisomal system. And plasmalogens are made in your peroxisomes. So virtually all cancers have a plasmalogen deficit. That's one of the biggest findings. So virtually all cancers have a plasmalogen deficit.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So Protandim Nrf2 is really the main one there, because it improves cholesterol transport through the cholesterol transport system. You want to make sure that their HDL levels get up, and you want good high levels of cholesterol. So blood cholesterol level well over 200 using the US system — I can't think of the conversion for the metric version, but you want to be on the US version high. You should be in the 240 range, if you will. So you want good levels of LDL, you want good levels of HDL, because the cellular membrane structure is important.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So this is where the concept of deviation from health is. A fasting cell — there's certain parts of your body that never get cancer, for example. You virtually never get cancer of muscles, you virtually never get cancer of the heart. The only time the heart ever gets any cancer is if it's metastatic from some other part of the body. And that's because your muscles and your heart live in the fasting state. They live off of, fundamentally, fatty acid metabolites. And so one of the main aspects of cancer is shifting the body into a fasting state, and then getting the mitochondrial function, the ATP production, putting it back in the mitochondria.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So I use things like rapamycin and ivermectin in combination with high dose of the Nrf2 and GlyNAC, of course. But the mitochondrial support structure, like your good old thiamine, riboflavin, niacin — higher doses of niacin. People don't take enough niacin. Good, cheap, old-fashioned nicotinic acid, like the flushing kind. People should basically be up to a gram a day.

Lisa: Really?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Creatine is another simple, cheap supplement that people should all be on — four or five grams of creatine every day. So when I talk about health, what are the core areas that have health issues? It is the mitochondrial structure and function, which is your main powerhouse of your cells. It is the methyltransferase system. So when you talk about phosphatidylcholine, that's another big, big issue. That's why we spend a lot of time — that's another one of our products that we focus on. And it's the animal-based phosphatidylcholine that is really critical, because that's what the brain can absorb. The seed oil-based phosphatidylcholine is not human compatible. It requires a lot of additional biochemical transformations. It requires an enzyme called phospholipase A1, which is really in the liver. The brain does not absorb plant-based phosphatidylcholine very well because it's got linoleic acid at the SN1 position.

Lisa: Uh-huh.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Getting into the weeds here. So we focus on trying to find high concentration animal sources of phosphatidylcholine, and egg yolks are one of the best sources of it. So we use fresh frozen egg yolks, freeze dry it, and then we extract out of that, using food-grade ethanol, the full lipid composition of egg yolks. And so there's a ProdromeNeuro PC Plus product and a ProdromeGlia PC Plus, which contain additional brain nutrition — these animal-based lipids that are highly absorbable into the brain, for restoring brain volume and structure. That's the other aspect of it.

Lisa: Choline is super important, isn't it? Because when you don't have enough of that choline, the methyltransferase system's not working, you're sort of digesting your own membranes. Is that correct? In the brain?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: That's right. So the methyltransferase system is one of the weak links in the human body. You have a fairly robust one, but there's two molecules that take up the bulk of your methyltransferase system. When people think methyltransferase, they normally think of homocysteine levels — so elevated homocysteine, which is a pretty decent marker.

Lisa: Yeah.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Actually, low levels of homocysteine are equally bad, because it shows that you have a problem doing methyltransferase. But the two key molecules for methyltransferase are making creatine for your muscles and your brain and your liver, and making phosphatidylcholine. And so the reason why supplementation with phosphatidylcholine is so important, and with creatine is so important, is that it provides a reserve capacity. By providing those molecules nutritionally, you are relieving, or you're reducing, the methyltransferase demand of the body, and it reduces that quite dramatically.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And so this is the other concept people need to work on, because we have what's called essential nutrients and non-essential nutrients. But that definition is derived from acute studies of deficiencies. Like a vitamin D deficiency will give you rickets, or a vitamin C deficiency will give you scurvy. A choline deficiency — your body can technically make choline, your body can technically make creatine, so it's not considered essential because your body can make them. Same thing with plasmalogens — it's not considered essential because your body technically can make them. But can you make enough of them for optimal health? And that's really the different part of the conversation, saying, well, no.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: A lot of these vitamins, it's not possible from a nutritional perspective to get enough. You can't get enough niacin in a regular diet. Riboflavin is another big, big problem. Riboflavin is critical for absorbing your minerals and nutrients, critical for your electron transport chain. It's a critical, critical nutrient and it's cheap as dirt — a lot of these basic B vitamins. So before people get into the really, really fancy stuff, you want to also make sure — again, this concept of the human body as a bioreactor — there are a lot of ingredients required to make the human body function. It's like a recipe, right? A good recipe has lots of ingredients, and your human body is a very big ingredient list. Getting those core systems in place, they're synergistic with each other. N-acetylcysteine, to maintain your glutathione levels, is another area that's important.

Lisa: Can I ask a couple of questions here? Niacin — doesn't niacin deplete methyl groups if you have too much of it?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Well, it gets methylated in the process of making NAD, but not really that big of a deal. You want to take your branched-chain amino acids, like leucine, and niacin together — they're very important. But if you're taking creatine and phosphatidylcholine, and then on the methyltransferase support you want to have your N-acetylcysteine, you want to have methylfolate, methyl B12, and also trimethylglycine — that should also be part of your diet. You just want to make sure you have enough of those things. And if you have enough of those things, then you don't need to worry about niacin.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Niacin is actually amazing anti-cancer. Virtually all chemotherapeutics, all cancer therapy trials that have added niacin to the regimen, have improved outcomes in cancer. Virtually every single time.

Lisa: Wow.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And it used to be used a lot for lipid lowering. So when you have low HDL individuals — people that have low levels of HDL — there's usually a trifecta that you use to try to increase HDL levels. So ProdromeNeuro...

Lisa: Mhm.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: ...the animal-based phosphatidylcholine, and niacin. Those are the three nutrients that reproducibly increase HDL levels.

Lisa: Wow.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And niacin is also very powerful at lowering your triglycerides. It used to be used up to three grams a day as a therapeutic dose of niacin. Now, of course, don't do that all at once. You want to build up, because it does flush.

Lisa: Yeah, I went too hard with the niacin all at once, and then you end up in an ambulance. So don't do that.

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Lisa: So just to reflect back, these are key mitochondrial supports alongside the plasmalogens. That's really key, so that we get our methylation system working as well and our mitochondria working. What's your take on guanidinoacetic acid as opposed to normal creatine? I've heard that it very much gets into the brain easier, and it's taken as a combination of normal monohydrate creatine with — how do you say it? — GAA. Is that a better form of creatine if you're taking creatine?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: No. GAA — I strongly recommend against GAA therapy.

Lisa: Right.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: GAA therapy is like taking L-dopa, okay? GAA is the actual main methyltransferase drag, because it's actually GAA that gets methylated to creatine. So if you take GAA, you're actually sucking up excess methyl groups. That's why, for example, if you take Parkinson's, people take L-dopa, so they'll often take a COMT inhibitor, a catechol-O-methyltransferase inhibitor, because it's converted to dopamine, but it also creates elevated homocysteine levels. So if you take GAA directly, it'll elevate your homocysteine levels.

Lisa: We have GAA with — well, this is one off the top of my head. I interviewed a guy who formulated GAA with a different type of creatine, the normal creatine, to buffer that effect. His take was it was more beneficial in the brain if you were buffering that methyl problem.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Your brain has high levels of creatine. When you do a magnetic resonance spectroscopy, MRS, the creatine peak is one of the biggest peaks in MRS, okay? And so your brain absorbs and takes up creatine quite dramatically. When we look at our protocols, when you take in the plasmalogens, you're taking creatine, and you'll see your glutathione levels in the brain elevate. So yes, it would get converted to creatine, for sure, but you're putting a load on the human system that I would not.

Lisa: Okay.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And I try to get people off of those methyltransferase — like same thing with Parkinson's, if we support the system functionally, people can get off of L-dopa even. We can actually, because it has other side effects.

Lisa: Yeah, exactly. And N-acetylcysteine is another key one, which is also a precursor to glutathione. Again, when you bring in precursors, they seem to do better in the body, don't they, in a lot of cases?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Well, okay, look, N-acetylcysteine is just an amino acid. It's cysteine. So sulfur amino acids, your cysteine and methionine, are critical. You don't want to take methionine directly, though, because that again has some issues with it. So if you take N-acetylcysteine, then you don't really need to worry about methionine. Methionine is your actual methyl donor that the body uses. Methionine is an amino acid, it's found in your proteins, it's typically low. The sulfur amino acids, methionine and cysteine, are typically low in plant-based proteins. They're higher in, say, whey protein, for example.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: But N-acetylcysteine restores your cysteine levels, restores glutathione levels. One of the problems with inflammation — so people that are suffering from inflammation, it's not just that you have reduced levels of glutathione, it's that your body had the glutamate toxicity of an inflamed microglia or inflamed macrophage, for example. It actually starves your cells of cysteine. One of the mechanisms of how it actually kills damaged cells is by hitting it with lots of glutamate, and it sucks the cysteine out of it. It's called a cystine antiporter, that's the actual protein. It pulls up cysteine, or cystine if you will, pulls up cystine and exports glutamate. And so by taking N-acetylcysteine, it's not about just the glutathione itself, it's actually cysteine that has importance, because you want to make sure that you're counteracting the inflammatory response of the inflamed cells.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So yeah, N-acetylcysteine is one of the most well-studied, and people don't take enough of it. I take three grams of that a day. I'll take six capsules.

Lisa: Right.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Study after study on N-acetylcysteine — it's one of the most powerful. The other one is carnitine. Acetyl-L-carnitine is another really good one, and coenzyme Q10. These are other molecules that have to be in your arsenal.

Lisa: Do you take sort of higher doses of those as well? And the question on the back of that: coenzyme Q10 is a big molecule that's quite difficult to get into the cell. Is there any particular preferred form? I interviewed Dr. Barrie Tan, who has geranylgeraniol, which is a sort of part of the coenzyme Q10 molecule that he says gets into the cell much easier to make the actual coenzyme Q10, because it's a bit of an albatross of a molecule, isn't it, coenzyme Q10?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Well, CoQ10 is actually a pretty simple molecule. It's a polyene molecule, which gives it its antioxidant properties. When it's in its active state, it has two ketones on it. How your body uses coenzyme Q10 is in your electron transport chain. Your electron transport chain has four compartments in it, and then the fifth one is the ATP generating system.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: NADH is your human energy. When your body combusts hydrocarbons like sugars and fats, it brings it down to a simple molecule called acetyl-CoA. Then acetyl-CoA gets burned into carbon dioxide and water. And when it gets burned up, so that we can actually have this conversation — there's energy that it creates — it creates electrons and protons, proton being H+, and electrons. And so it transfers those electrons onto NADH. NADH is actually the human form of energy. Then the body takes this NADH — the energy is stored in NADH — and it transfers the energy in NADH into the electron transport chain, and it transfers it to coenzyme Q10.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And this is where riboflavin becomes very important. Riboflavin works hand in hand with CoQ10. It's riboflavin that is the co-transporter, that's actually what transports the electrons from NADH onto CoQ10. So then CoQ10 becomes ubiquinol. And then CoQ10 takes those electrons and transfers it — that's at complex two — and then it transfers it to cytochrome C at complex three. So it shuttles it in that process.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And again, I think people get bored with 50, 60, 70 years of science and they're always trying to find new things. But really, coenzyme Q10, if you're taking a couple hundred milligrams of that per day — you can take fairly high doses of it — it's going to get to where it's going. I don't think you have to worry too much about that.

Lisa: Niacin or NADH, ubiquinol — doesn't really matter, or be ubiquinol?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Well, I simply use coenzyme Q10. Again, people think, well, niacin versus different types of NAD precursors. If you're taking sufficient levels, okay, over time it will improve it. So one gram of niacin per day will elevate your NAD levels both in the blood and in your cells by threefold over a few months, okay?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And so when we talk about longevity and you talk about how do you maintain basically functional immortality of your cells — that's not a one-week job. This is something where you're creating a sustained biochemical environment. You're adding these things in and you're taking them long-term. And if you're taking these things long-term, your body will gradually build those things up in the right form.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Sometimes the studies that we do, these short-term studies where we're comparing directly the bioavailability of one versus another — well, the bioavailability is better. Well, does it really — is 40% versus 60%, does that make any difference long-term? I guess, because 40% is probably maybe all you need. Or you take 10% more of it, that type of thing, right? And the other things with your gut function will evolve.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So we have to be careful when we micro-dissect some of these studies, because we look at these studies scientifically, we're trying to understand things at a mechanistic level. But when you're applying it in your everyday life, those things, your programme, your personal programme — you look at it long-term. What are the long-term programmes of it? And then in my personal opinion, I like to keep it as simple as possible. There's enough complexities out there. Keep this programme simple. Where you want to get fancy is if you want to get fancy into peptides or into other types of triggering or signalling, when you want to change your environment in a way that you are stressing or pushing the system in a certain way. That's where things get a little more fancy.

Lisa: So looking at, going back to the plasmalogen story, we want to create this biochemical reserve in the body. We want to be putting these in, whether you're healthy or you're fighting a disease. And if you're fighting a disease, you may want much bigger doses, depending on what you're facing. And if you're facing something like ALS or Parkinson's, then you better get serious. And then you've got the mitochondrial support, and then there are other things which you could be adding in.

Lisa: I've heard in a couple of your lectures, when you're talking about autism and dealing with children who are having these incredible breakthroughs with plasmalogens and mitochondrial support — but you fix the brain, and then there's also the rehab journey, isn't there? It's like with my mum: I've got her back to a certain level of function, but I have to train her constantly. I have to keep changing up the exercises she does and the rehabilitation, the training at the gym, the weight training, all of that sort of thing, because I need to put in the impetus, because the body has lost that ability. So if you're dealing with Parkinson's or you're dealing with ALS or these things, you've got that rehab side of the journey, as well as the biochemical fixing.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Everything is cyclic and rhythmic, okay? There's no such thing as homeostasis, for example. That's a falsehood. You're never really in homeostasis, ever, okay? Your body's changing over the course of the day. You're in a fed state, then you're in a fasting state; you're in a sleep state, then you're in an awake state. And so you're constantly changing, okay?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And so our job as stewards of our bodies is to create the stimulating environment so that we are being pushed and the body has something to resist against, because without that we get atrophy. So the human body has to work. It has to move. It has to think. There is no such thing as retirement. If you want to live forever, if you want longevity, okay, there is no such thing as retirement. You should be 85...

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: ...years old and you should be thinking of what is my next university degree going to be. What is my next challenge in life going to be? The concept of retirement is accepting your own death. You're basically just... you've already given yourself a window of time to die. So you have to first of all eliminate that from your system.

Lisa: Yeah, totally agree.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And we look at these things like restoring from a disease perspective. Obviously, I take high doses of certain things and I measure my brain with MRI, and I published and presented this work where I reversed over 20 years of my own brain aging and my own physiology. I'm 55 now, but I function better than I did in my 20s and 30s. My strength and my performance is better than it was. And my brain is now back in a 40-year-old state, type of thing.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: These are things that we can actually quantifiably measure and do. We can measure health comprehensively and function. And we can then adapt and adjust our biochemistry and our environment in such a way to maintain that function. And it should be indefinitely. So ask me again in 100 years how it's going. That's the whole plan. And it's fun. It's fun to push the limits, if you will.

Lisa: And you're constantly learning. And there was this concept I heard you talking about on your podcast, of entropy. Like the world conspires to disintegrate things. If you make your bed — that was the analogy that you used — you make it nice and smooth in the morning, it's all made up, but there a hundred thousand things over the day will cause that bed to be mucked up again. And so if you bring that into a life, into health, there are things that are constantly trying to wear our health down, and we have to keep making the bed. We have to keep maintaining our health. Because the world just disintegrates everything in the chaos eventually. So we have to keep that active, proactive prevention mindset alive and well, really. And you have to be constantly pushing it.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Like pushing it within your limits, right? You have to actually — your body needs the biochemical energy to do work. And so, yes, exactly those concepts. And so the entropy thing, that's what you're doing every day with the biochemical energy that your human body's producing. You're fighting entropy. You're putting order. You're actually creating order, and order takes energy. Cleaning your house takes energy. Cleaning anything — like you said, that's exactly right. The entropy kind of just... everything conspires to make things ashes to ashes, dust to dust, right? And so we're fighting that every single day.

Lisa: Yeah. I think that's a really good analogy for people to have. Can we just, before we wrap up — because I know you've probably got a thousand other appointments to get to and stuff — you have the ProdromeSCAN. Can you explain a little bit what the ProdromeSCAN is, how it relates to health, and what you can read from it, what your practitioner can help you understand from this test? This is a functional test that you've developed. And how do the plasmalogens play into that?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Yeah, so a ProdromeSCAN is kind of the greatest hits, if you will, of all the biochemical markers that I've studied over tens of thousands, 50,000 and more blood samples over the years. And so it's kind of your starting point of biochemical health. It has a section that deals with the phospholipids, the plasmalogens, the ethanolamines, phosphocholines, and their compositions. It has a section that deals with the essential fatty acids that are at the SN2 position of your phospholipids that really indicate whether you're getting pro-resolving metabolites in your cells or pro-inflammatory metabolites in your cells. And it looks at the fatty acid elongation rates.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: We look at some gut health markers, these gastrointestinal tract acids called GTAs, that are really highly predictive or high-risk factors for colon and pancreatic cancer, for example. And then we have a section on the methyltransferase system that I've talked about already today, which is very important. Not just the homocysteine levels, but ceramides and sphingomyelins, and then your ethanolamines and cholines, that kind of shows you how your methyltransferase system is working.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: There's a simple mitochondrial testing section that basically looks at acetyl-CoA leakage out of your mitochondria. So your mitochondria is supposed to take in acetyl-CoA and create energy. And if it's overwhelmed, it's not doing its job or can't do its job, this acetyl-CoA leaks out and goes into... so we can measure that process. It looks at peroxisomal function, your plasmalogen levels again and your DHA to EPA ratios, and your fasting triglycerides. We've just incorporated fasting insulin and fasting glucose as part of the test.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Then we have an antioxidant panel. We just added the catalase, superoxide dismutase, and malondialdehyde to the ProdromeSCAN test. So we have a really good measure of those antioxidant enzyme systems. And then high-sensitivity C-reactive protein is another molecule that we track, because you want to keep that under one. And then the cholesterol transport system — very simple, your total cholesterol and HDL is really the key markers there. And we look at some kidney NAD markers, in terms of creatinine, blood urea nitrogen, and the uric acid levels.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And so these core systems collectively are your core operating system of the human body. And we know what those are supposed to be. And it's not a diagnostic test. It's about function. We restore health and function. Our protocols restore these systems. We use the ProdromeSCAN test really to monitor our progress to optimising our biochemical health. It's not saying, "Oh, based upon this, I do this." We're not taking the blood test to say, "Oh, because I have high homocysteine, then I guess I better take my B12." No, take your B12 anyways. You still take the core systems that your body needs. And if you're doing those things, you use the blood test to monitor: "Oh, my homocysteine has gone from 14 to 12 to 10 to 8, and now it's where it's supposed to be." Right?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So the blood test is designed to relieve your health anxiety over time. Once you've identified a health programme that fits your life, this blood test should show that, and then you should be able to check it. It gets rid of the boogeyman, if you will. And it shows things that could be totally out in left field that you didn't know was missing. And that's kind of what the ProdromeSCAN test is designed for.

Lisa: Yeah, and it's developed even further since I did the last one, by the sounds of it. So this is a really good way to check that you're on track, that the stuff that you're doing is working, and what to double down on, and the trend data over time. Because this is the thing — we don't... you go to the doctor, you ask for blood tests, and they go, "What do you want that for?"

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Yeah, I know. We're flying blind if we don't have it. You wouldn't drive a car without a dashboard, right?

Lisa: And this is a very, very fancy dashboard that gives us a real good look under the cover. I would love to see everybody just getting a basic blood workup. That would be good.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Exactly. And then we biobank your samples here, so we don't throw them away, so we can go back into them later on. And then we've just launched the Elite programme, and that's the full ion cyclotron technology. So that's talking 50, 60,000 biomarkers.

Lisa: Jeez.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So it goes from that ProdromeSCAN to — and then we'll have our hormone panel, and we do an enantiomeric separation of amino acids like D and L serine, which is critical. So the full power of the ion cyclotron technology and the bioinformatics to interpret that are now becoming available to our Elite practitioners.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And then we have a parallel system with the MRI. We have the most comprehensive MRI capabilities of the brain. We measure about 10 or 12 different sequences of the brain, from the white matter to the grey matter microstructure, structural connectivity of the brain, functional connectivity of the brain, biochemical composition of the brain. So we have a very extensive digitisation of the human brain. We measure about 100,000 features in the human brain. And we can measure that again to show progress over time. So we can show the reversal of age, the restoration of function of the brain, and then ultimately to show the maintenance of the brain. So we want to move the brain to optimal function, and then we want to monitor it over the rest of your lifetime, that it should stay there. And that's what we're doing. So the advanced biochemical analysis and advanced imaging technology is really, really helping.

Lisa: And the MRI is coming to Australia shortly, one of these special MRIs that you've developed?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Yes.

Lisa: And what I'm hoping — any practitioners that are listening to this in New Zealand who want to go and do the Elite training — there's two levels sort of of training that practitioners can do. I'm hoping to do the first level, but the second level you have to actually go to America and do part of it live with you. But can you just walk through for any practitioners what they could do to actually get qualified so that they can actually use all this technology? Because I've seen the testimonials from the people that have been through your Restorative Health Centre in Canada — your Parkinson's people, your multiple sclerosis, your ALS. These are diseases you're not meant to come back from, right? It's a one-way street. And you're reversing these diseases. This gives people hope. So what we need is more practitioners understanding these ProdromeSCANs, understanding this MRI imaging that you've done. So where can people go to find out if they're interested in doing the courses with you?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Well, either at prodrome.com — practitioners are technically in the Prodrome system. So, prodrome.com, you'll have access to either the certified practitioner or the Elite. So certified practitioners get a bunch of educational content. We've just now put all of my lectures and all of the scientific... because I do grand rounds every month on a different topic. And we'll talk about hot topics. We'll talk about alpha-ketoglutarate or methylene blue — there'll be hot topics on things. And those scientific lectures are all available, all history of those things. So I've been doing this for several years now. So there are years' worth of lectures and grand rounds that are all digitised and searchable and indexed.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: So certified practitioners not only get educational training on the biochemical basis of these different diseases, but they have access to the historical record of all this content that we've done. And then every month we have our grand rounds. And now with this new circle.so platform that we've incorporated, we can share and communicate with each other on our case studies and interpretations and outcomes, and hot topics are now

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: — communicated within that network. So it's a very, very extremely powerful resource. And then the elite network is one step above that. That's getting into really high-level research-grade technologies and protocols.

Lisa: Yeah. And this is where I could actually do part of that with you. But we need clinicians all over the world doing this, and we need both levels — ones that are just going to do the scans and use these plasmalogens properly and the protocols properly. And so I'm really excited, because I've seen with my own mother, of course, that I've been told so many times it's a one-way street, put her on end-of-life care, she's not going to get better from this, this is a terminal illness, blah, blah, blah. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Her brain's come back again and again and again. We've got some deficits now, but I'm still like, I'm never giving up. These are solvable, and with the more education that I get, the more things that I can put into the right combinations and the right things, I believe we can still get on top of the existing issues we still have.

Lisa: And the message that I want to get across to people is, just because you've been given a diagnosis of Parkinson's or Alzheimer's or something, or cancer or terminal cancer — and you've got your own story with your own father — this is not the end of the story and it's not the end of the road. And there are things out there, and it requires massive undertakings sometimes. It takes a lot of effort, and so all hands on deck, as you say, approach. You need a support network, you need some resources — and unfortunately you need resources, because not all this stuff is funded — but there is a way out and there is a way forward, and there is hope, most importantly.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Exactly. Life is very, very powerful. Life is binary. This is really what we're talking about here — it is a true celebration of life, right? It's very precious and it's very powerful, and if you support it, it reaps its rewards. There's no greater return on investment than your health.

Lisa: Amen.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Mental health, your physical health, and it's respecting just the enormous awesomeness of human health. The more you learn about human health, the more you learn about the miracle of actually being alive. How this actually works. And then, you know, you're either alive or dead. You can't be both. So if you're breathing, there's hope. You just need to light the fire, get a spark, fan the flame, and work — like what you said, it's not easy, but with applied effort, really amazing things are possible.

Lisa: Especially when you have incredible people like you on the planet, who just span so many facets and have brought so much — inventions to the world and these nutritional products to the world — so that we can be guided. And there are many others as well in the space doing incredible things. So never give up just because your local doctor doesn't know the answer. They're not the world. They don't even know about Dr. Goodenowe, I can guarantee you that much. So you need to go and be proactive.

Lisa: Dr. Dayan, you've just been wonderful today. I don't want to take up any more of your time because I know you've got plenty of things to be doing. I just want to say thank you for all the hard work that you continue to put into this. I'm hopeful I can do the training, at least the certified practitioner training with you, and I can hopefully convince some colleagues to fly over and do the elite level training so that we can get Kiwis more access to this type of thing. And if you are wanting to get the plasmalogens, you can reach out to me, we can do all of that. And if you're wanting to know about the Restorative Health Centre in Canada, what can people do? Because you do take a small number of people through your programme. How do people qualify for such a thing if they're interested?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Yeah, if you go to drgoodenowe.com, there'll be information there, there are sign-up sheets there, and someone will reach out to you and schedule an appointment. Lots of resources are available there. And for us it's like — like yourself, Lisa — just getting out there to communicate to people, to realise that as a community we just need to keep on telling our stories, and this will eventually become standard of care.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: I'm really interested ultimately — obviously these are not funded resources — but I'm really interested in public health. I'm starting huge community trials in a city called Moose Jaw, Canada. And so these technologies collectively, when we start really showing these results in a systematic manner, we will eventually change standard of care.

Lisa: Yeah. And you have to start — it all starts with private, because you democratise these technologies over time and bring the price down as you scale things up and so on. But you've got to start somewhere, right?

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: Right. And there are so many logistical hurdles to overcome in getting these things as standard of care.

Lisa: When I hear the word standard of care currently, I think 30 years old. That's what I see. It's not what it currently should be. So if you've been offered standard of care, run for the hills and try and find somewhere else. But yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: And so we just have to do the hard work. And do the communication, show the results, do the trials. There's no easy way. There are no shortcuts in this world. We as a community have to actually do the work to get this done. And you're critical to it, Lisa, and people like you out there talking and sharing our stories. It's changing people's awareness and vision.

Lisa: Absolutely. That's why I keep — hats off to you. I'll keep working, I'll keep sharing. And thank you so much for today, Dr. Goodenowe. It's been absolutely wonderful.

Dr. Dayan Goodenowe: You're very welcome, Lisa. Have a wonderful day.

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